Old house, steam heat, big problems!

Steamhead

is probably 2-inch.... but even if it's 1-1/2-inch, I'd use two Gorton #1 or Hoffman #75 vents on it. The added resistance of the smaller main warrants two vents. Mount them near the end of the main.

If there is no tee to pipe them into, you can drill and tap a 3/8" pipe thread hole in the side of the pipe (or the top if you can get to it) increase to 1/2" with a reducer coupling or elbow, and pipe the two vents on a 1/2" tee.

The drilling and tapping isn't a textbook move, but I do it often and have never had a problem.

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Frank Bialas

Old house, troubles with steam radiators

A long story... takes a few minutes to read, but it took me a couple of years to write...

My steam heat system in this old house needs help. I could have filmed a few episodes of the TV show already! I've been fighting it since I bought the home eight years ago, and sadly, none of the heating / plumbing people I've talked with admit to knowing anything useful. So this homeowner needs advice from knowledgeable people. I am reasonably mechanically adept, and I've found a plumber who will take my money to cut pipe, replace leaking sections and replumb risers, if I tell him what to do.

Thanks to Dan's website, over the past two years I've begun to understand what's wrong with my one-pipe system, and have begun correcting things little by little. I've come to the conclusion that my system had been installed by people who knew little about steam heat, and later modified by those who knew less.

The worst noticeble problem was serious water hammer and 2 or 3 radiators spitting dirty, brown water, a lot. After reading about slope on steam mains, I re-hung and blocked the steam main and now have a minimum slope of -.5% (about 1/2 inch in 10 feet) from beginning to end of the parallel flow steam main.

Actually, I just finished that last week, after having my plumber buddy cut off and plug two risers, so I could remove and repair two radiators, rebuild the floor, and reset and plumb in the radiators. I repaired one by removing a section. The other one leaked in the section with sleeves going both ways so I couldn't eliminate it. I followed my plumber's suggestion to repair it with PC-7 epoxy paste. It's worked without leaking for a week, so far.

BUT...
after all this dirty, heavy, sweaty work, both of the repaired radiators are exhibiting old behaviors and spitting lots of dirty brown water through the air vent. The boiler water is filthy. OK. Ok, I know... I need to drain it and flush the condensate return line, and I'll do the best I can tomorrow morning. It's cold here in central Pennsylvania, so I can only do small jobs that I can finish in a couple of hours, then I have to fire it up again. My annual burner / boiler service is scheduled for two weeks from Monday, but I have to do what I can now to mitigate the problem somewhat.

The radiators that are producing the dirty brown water are all within six feet of the end of the steam main where it necks down to 1" pipe to become the condensate return. Both radiators are on the first floor, only about 18" above the steam main. The elevation from the boiler water level to the end of the steam main is maybe 3-1/2 feet; the run is about 35 feet long; it looks to be 1-3/4" or 2" pipe. The return line is also about 35 feet long, running along the floor; it's strictly gravity feed. The system doesn't have a Hartford loop in it. That could be next summer's project, including new return piping.

The problem radiators gurgle a lot right after the boiler starts making steam, then they spit dirty water for several minutes, then apparently dry out and work properly till the cycle ends.

I've watched the boiler during a couple of cycles and observed: 1) the water level just disappears from the sight glass when steaming begins; 2) the water level returns to normal (minus the little bit that the radiators ejected) within a minute or so after the boiler shuts off. It's possible the cycle ends from low water cutoff, rather than thermostat sending the shut down signal. The pressure gauge usually reads about 8 psi when it shuts off. High pressure cut out is set at 15 psi, I believe.

So, taking all these observations into consideration, I surmise that as the boiler pressurizes, the water level is dropping because it's being pushed back through the return pipe, up to the end of the steam main, where it encounters the steam entering the risers to these two radiators. Thus the gurgling and the excessive water collecting in the radiators, and the dirty brown hot water spitting from the air vents.

Another observation to note was the aroma of industrial oils in the first couple of days after this plumbing and radiator work. I'm sure some residues of cutting oils and pipe sealants are now thoroughly mixed in the system.

After I drain and flush the boiler and condensate return pipe as best I can, I would like to make a more positive improvement also. Would it be a good idea to add a check valve in the return line to prevent back flow of condensate into the end of the steam main? I think a ball-check in the vertical drop about 6" above the horizontal return would be effective. Would that cause any other problem that I don't now forsee? Also, I'm thinking of installing a vent near at the end of the steam main, which should allow my main to fill at low pressure. From reading Dan's book excerpts, it seems that would be a good idea.

Also, just to have the abilty to close off steam to a radiator should the emergency need arise (like a leak), I would like to repair the valves by replacing or making new washers. I've called a dozen supply houses in the Harrisburg area, and no one has washers or even material to make them with. A couple of old timers said they are called "hard disks"; they don't carry them any more, but they think the disks were made from leather. I cut one out of the sole of an old shoe, so I could valve off the riser to remove a radiator for repair. It lasted about a week before turning to a jelly-like substance and extruding out around the seat and cup. That radiator is now back in place, so it isn't an immediate problem since the valve is open, anyway. What can I use for new washers, and where can I get it? Could I just fill the cup at the the end of the valve stem with PC-7 epoxy, maybe?

Thanks for reading my story. I certainly do want to learn from you. These symptoms and solutions may be old hat to you guys in the trade, but they are new and awfully perplexing to me and every homeowner who first encounters them. I look forward to your replies.

Frank Bialas

ed wallace

ol house steam

sounds like the pressure controls are set to high if you have dans book on steam read up on pressure settings the less pressure the better you only need 1 1/2 lbs of steam get the pressuretrols adjusted a properly working steam system is very quiet and gives plenty of heat

ed wallace

ol house steam

sounds like the pressure controls are set to high if you have dans book on steam read up on pressure settings the less pressure the better you only need 1 1/2 lbs of steam get the pressuretrols adjusted a properly working steam system is very quiet and gives plenty of heat

Floyd

Check find a contractor

If you are in the H'burg area you may not be very far from some very
qualified contractors that have been know to haunt this site!!! :-)

Floyd

Mark Eatherton1

Three things....

First off, get your credit card out and buy Dans Book, "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" if you haven't already done so. I suspect you haven't, because if you had, you'd already know many of the answers to your questions.

Second, clean the wet return AND the boiler.

And lastly, TURN IT DOWN, the pressure that is. Turn it as low as you can get it to go. In fact, get your plumber friend to get rid of the pressuretrol and replace it with a vapor stat.

Fourthly (OK, so I mis-counted) add a main vent to the return. Just make sure you read Dans book to know how to correctly install it, or you'll create even more problems for yourself.

Once you've invested in Dans book, you will become the local expert on one pipe steam systems. I guarantee it or my names not Orville Reddenbocker.

Orville

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Unknown

Get the book

I don't think you realize how much water leaves with the dirty steam up the supplies.

Forget the check valves.

Measure the load. I bet your firing rate is too high.

Insulate that main that is making all the water, and vent it with the right size vent.

Look at these pictures. Before: clean water

After: a little cooking oil in the water.

Noel

ScottMP

Listen to these guys

They just gave you all the answers.

Buy the Book !!

If you have time to install a check valve , then you have time to install a hartford loop with equilizer pipe.

By the way, hows the insulation on the main ? Makes a big difference.

Good Luck and Happy quiet Steaming

Scott

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Steamhead

These guys all said things I always say

so I won't repeat their excellent advice.

The lack of a Hartford Loop means the water level at the end of the main varies with boiler pressure. The higher the pressure, the higher the level. That's why the water backs into the last two radiators, and leaves the boiler when the steam is up. Make sure your low-water cutoff is working properly!

Measure the length and diameter of your steam mains. From this info we can properly size your main vents. Properly sized main vents will allow the steam to reach the end of the mains in a minute (measured from when the boiler begins to produce steam) at about 2 ounces pressure. That's OUNCES, not pounds.

Residential and most light commercial steam heating systems were designed to heat the house to 70 degrees when it was 0 degrees outside, with no more than 2 pounds of pressure at the boiler. The Dead Men- those near-genius old-time heating contractors- could do it on less than 2 pounds, so we can too.


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Unknown

Just repeating the great advice everyone else gave

The first place we look for problems on a steam system is the boiler itself . The near boiler piping has to be what the specs say , or your going to get wet steam up to the radiators . And without a Hartford Loop , and presumably without an equalizer , the water might push out the bottom of the boiler into the return piping . If you can correct the piping at the boiler and add a main vent past the last radiator riser on the main , youre gonna solve alot of problems on the system . Which type of boiler do you have ? And would you happen to be able to post some pictures of the system here ? Good luck , Ron .

Frank Bialas

Mark,
I started with #2 first, drained and flushed the boiler last Saturday morning. All the problems described in my long story have virtually disappeared! I am amazed to have quiet heat. I have to listen for it now; there's NO hissing. Well, maybe a whisper.
I still need to do some plumbing to enable flushing the return pipe to finish your second suggestion.
That might be it for the season, except I think installing a main vent (your 4th suggestion) is the next easy thing to do. That should allow the boiler to run at much lower pressure. After the main vent goes in, I can re-balance the radiators for even, equal heating, and observe boiler cycles for further improvement.
Then maybe I'll consider your first and third suggestions, but I really don't want to delve into the heating trade, just make this old small house comfortably warm, reliably.
Thanks to expert advice from craftsmen like Dan, and you, and SteamHead, I am much closer to that goal than I was two years ago.
Thanks. I'll be visiting The Wall occasionally.

Frank Bialas

Thanks for advice, fellas...

Finally, with a properly sloped steam main, I drained and flushed the boiler several times, and... like magic ... my boiler is boiling and my radiators are radiating like never before in eight years! If the system worked this well a week ago, I would have never started this story. I still need to do some plumbing to flush the return line and install a main vent. Then I may consider changes to boiler controls if pressure remains above 5 psi or so (I guess). I'll do the plumbing first, as my plumber buddy and I can get to it. Thanks again to all respondents for your expert advice and informed opinions. Oh, what about materials for washer seals for the radiator shut-off valves? I'd like to have everything functional if I can make it so -- inexpensively.
--- Frank B.

Frank Bialas

Yep, boiler water was biggest problem...

and now it's gone! Drained and flushed to reasonably clean water, now having NO problem with radiators. NO water backup. NO hissing and sputtering. I still need to do plumbing to allow back-flushing the return line. Maybe that'll be enough for this year. My boiler is a Burnham V-74, firing rate (oil) 1.05 gph, DOE Heating Cap of 125 MBH (what's MBH, a thousand BTU's per hour?) This is for a small, two storey house with about 1400 sq. ft living space; heating with six radiators. Boiler plate also says steam area 391 sq. ft. What's all that info mean? Thanks for your time and advice.

Steamhead

Acronyms

MBH= 1000 btu per hour. You hit that one on the head.

DOE Heating Capacity= how much heat is available at the steam outlet on the boiler, using the testing procedure specified by the US Dept of Energy. You should also see a "Net" rating which is a bit lower, that is the heat that is assumed to reach the radiators after the system has been warmed up.

"Square Feet" does not refer to the area of the house, but to the radiation. The original steam radiators were glorified tin boxes and were rated by their surface area in square feet. It was found that 1 square foot of surface would emit 240 BTU per hour. The ratings for the later pipe, column, wall and tubular radiation were calculated according to how much steam they would condense, but the "Square Feet" rating was continued, probably because the Dead Men were used to it by then.

Make sense?




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Dave Flood

Hi Frank,
Its really cool to see the welath of knowledge thats out there from my colleagues. A lot of this info has taken years of training and frustration. If I read your story correctly, your project has been going on for two years now. You should be farther along than you are. I have to believe that there is a qualified steam man in your area to help you with this problem. You mentioned flushing the system. You need to skim the system. It sounds like many things need to be changed or added. A hartford loop, main vent, etc. Dan's books are top of the line books that all techs should have. We read them and live them. I would recomend that you go to the Peerless Boiler website. You'll find a book in there on one pipe steam. It is a great book and color coded, written in laymen's terms. Read through it, study the pics, charts and graphs. Take a look at your system. Design it.........plan your work, and work your plan. Two years is a long time to fix the probelm you are discussing.

Dave Flood
Dir of Tech Ed
ICPA Tech Trng Ctr
Wallingford, Ct

Frank Bialas

Progress update

Just to keep the thread alive, and post a record of work in progress...
I flushed the boiler a few weeks ago, and the condensate return line this past weekend. What ugly brown sludge came out! Flushed boiler again, too. Had annual burner service done a couple of days ago, including de-scaling stuff (SQWIK). Next work planned is to add a vent on the steam main. How big should it be? Main is 1.5 or 1.75 inch pipe; the run is about 40 feet long, and feeds six radiators of typical residential size.
Thanks in advance for your advice.
--- Frank B.

Frank Bialas

Vents for steam main

Steamhead,
are these vents you mention available at the local Home Depot or Lowes? Do you foresee any problem with connecting both vents into a tee at the end of the steam main, with the condensate return coming off the perpendicular leg (down)? If I can't easily find the vents you recommend, would it matter much to just get the biggest radiator vent I can find at the local home store and use it?
--- Frank B.

Steamhead

The only radiator vents

that can equal the Gorton #1 or Hoffman #75 are the Gorton (and similar Maid-o-Mist/Jacobus) #D, or the Heat-Timer Vari-Valve set wide open. I'd work the phone and see if someone carries the Gorton #1 or Hoffman #75 in your area. I'm sure at least one supply house does.

I've been known to use those D vents in a pinch, or where someone had already put rad vents on the end of a main, or where there wasn't room to properly install a standard main vent. But these were last-resort cases.

I'm not that fond of the Vari-Valve since it does not close against water.

The tee at the end of the main is not the best place to put a vent, since water coming down the main can slam into the tee and up into the vent. That said, there are probably millions of these setups out there and they work fine, since you rarely if ever see that much water in a main.

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