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Carbon Monoxide
it has a hole in one section of the heat exchanger, two other sections rusted closed blocking part of the flue ways.
The chimney has part of the clay tile liner damaged and had fallen down inside the chmney blocking the chimney by about 80%.
It gets more interesting, they just moved into this house in the spring of this year. The house was inspected and given a clean bill of health. While I was there today part of the old duct system was inspected and possibly contains some mold.
The lawyers are loving this stuff.
The chimney has part of the clay tile liner damaged and had fallen down inside the chmney blocking the chimney by about 80%.
It gets more interesting, they just moved into this house in the spring of this year. The house was inspected and given a clean bill of health. While I was there today part of the old duct system was inspected and possibly contains some mold.
The lawyers are loving this stuff.
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Comments
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Information available
on CO for free. I have some procedures that I recommend you all get hold of on what to do when CO is detected.
WE just had a situation posted by Mark Hunt that is reason enough to get some education.
I also just had an incident that the fire department went in and after a CO alarm had gone off. They tested and found no CO. They advised the customer to call their heating contractor. The customer called a utility that no longer does service and was told to call a plumber to check it out. The plumber went and looked at the unit a forced warm air furnace. He did not have any CO detection equipment. He looked at the flame and told the customer it was okay.
The alarm went off again that night. The customer wisely shut off the equipment and called a local heating and AC company (they sell a well known brand of furnace). They tested in the house with the unit running and found over 500 PPM in the ducts and 100 ppm in two bedrooms. They tested the flue and found 1500 ppm. Interesting the fire department tested with all the windows and doors open and did not bring the furnace on.
Why did I get involved? Ready for this the homeowner is going to sue somebody he is not sure who as of this time. His lawyer contacted me for my opinion on proper procedure.
I am going to be looking at the old furnace this week.
The furnace company has since replaced this unit and installed new duct work, brought air in from outdoors/sidewall vented new unit, and the chimney has been condemned. There has also been a gas water heater replaced with electric.
I REALLY FIND MYSELF SOMETIMES FRUSTRATED WITH NOT BEING ABLE TO GET THE WORD OUT ON TESTING EVERY JOB. I ALSO FIND THAT LOCAL AGENCIES WHO SHOULD BE CHECKED OUT REALLY ARE NOT.0 -
PREACH IT!!!!!!!
nm.
Mark H
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I've been to NCI's CO class twice, and want to bring my guys when they come into town again.
If you think you know CO, guess again. Tim is right, get on the ball.
Gary
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Thank's for the support Gary. I guess everyone heard of the two people that died in St. Louis Oct. 16 from CO poisoning. Something I always tell my students is that if you need the fire department to come to your house it is already too late.0 -
Hey Jim
How are you? I didn't know you were a Wall lurker! It may seem kinda off-base, but do you keep these incidents on file? Not the newspaper ones, I know you have those, but can you forward me some links to these happenings?
Gary
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another incident
http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/1743923/detail.html
The TV news report also mentioned that an attic fan was suspected as creating negative pressure and drawing flue gasses back thru furnace into house.
Couple had long history of heart problems so the physician signing the death certs just "assumed" they had heart attacks.
Mark0 -
Co kills family
A whole faamily died todaay about 3 miles from my home.Colonia N J.CO poisoning, plugged chimney.0 -
Attic Fans
worst thing ever invented. They actually make AC work harder and create all kinds of problems with Radon, and other undesirable stuff that gets sucked into the house. All that air being pulled out nothing coming in not a good thing.
They will cause a reverse chimney on water heaters which are running year round.0 -
Mr.Davis
I'll have you know that you scared the bejeepers outta' me at your seminar.
And thank God you did. Spoke to George Kerr recently. I will be offering his CO alarms to all of my customers.
Post here more often PLEASE!!!!!!
Mark H
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Jim Davis
If we can put it together I will let you use my training center free of charge in the Providence area. We can hold about 30 people comfortably. All I would ask is that each attendee pay a $10 entry fee.
I have a local mailing list of about 5,000. If NCI will pay for the mailing I think we can do something.
Let me know 401-437-05570 -
CO Alarms
The alarm George Kerr offers is the only one that I feel good about recommending. Every contractor should be offering them to their customers. I posted some info a while back about them.0 -
Thanks Timmie!!
That's how I got hold of him. Jim showed us the "AIM" CO alarm at the seminar I attended.
Been looking ever since.
You the man!!!!
Mark H
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Please let me know how
To get a hold of these CO alarms. I have tested the CO alarms that can be bought locally and none of them kick in until they see a lot of CO, too much...I thought it was just me.
Cas0 -
CO alarms for Casmos
CO Experts
Division of G.E. Kerr Companies, Inc.
19299 Katrina Lane
Eldridge, Missouri 65463-9102 USA
Phone 417-426-5504
FAX 417-426-5594
e-mail gekerr@tds.net
Tell him I connected you up with him.0 -
Thanks
Does he have a website? I will be calling tomorrow.
Cas0 -
Check this out....
http://www.aeromedix.com/products/codetect/codetect.html
Was checking around and found this site that sells the CO experts detector,
Can you believe that there is no UL listing on this puppy be cause it is TOO
sensitive????
Go figure!!!!!
Some good info. here.
Floyd0 -
Dominic told me to check in last week. See a few familiar faces here. Don't always have alot of time because of travel, but will try to keep up. The CO Experts Alarm is also available @ National Comfort Institute..www.nationalinstitute.com
Lost track of the CO news sites, but will find them from some of my other spy's0 -
Attic Fans
Boy are you right about attic fans! They are like a carnival trick since they look like they should work. We had a CO case with one that was controlled by a humidity sensor and hard wired so the new homeowner didn't even know it was running in cold damp weather. Gable vents plugged to keep birds out in summer and CO in the fall, direct connection between furnace room and attic by way of plumbing stack and brick chimney clearance. The devil to find since the house needed to be closed up for a few hours before it would backdraft the furnace.0 -
attic fan
What is the definition of "attic fan"?
Is it the advertised "whole house fan" or the roof ventilating fan?
I can agree the whole house fan can cause negative pressure, also foul up a good well designed A/C and suck the fumes back down the chimney.
In the case of the thermostatically controlled attic fan, if installed with properly placed and size air inlet vents, won't cause negative pressure and will assist even an under designed A/C. It will also extend the life of the roofing, remove excess humidity and reduce the chance of mold.
Making a house more efficient must include insulating the living area from the shelter area and venting.(between ceiling and roof)
If the heat is trapped here you have a radiant ceiling panel and the roofing is being cooked. When the solar rays diminish the outside surface cools and the warm air condenses on the inner surface of the roof.
A burner needs sufficient air and so does a ventilator fan.
al0 -
True. But.....
> What is the definition of "attic fan"?
>
> Is it
> the advertised "whole house fan" or the roof
> ventilating fan?
>
> I can agree the whole house
> fan can cause negative pressure, also foul up a
> good well designed A/C and suck the fumes back
> down the chimney.
>
> In the case of the
> thermostatically controlled attic fan, if
> installed with properly placed and size air inlet
> vents, won't cause negative pressure and will
> assist even an under designed A/C. It will also
> extend the life of the roofing, remove excess
> humidity and reduce the chance of mold.
>
> Making
> a house more efficient must include insulating
> the living area from the shelter area and
> venting.(between ceiling and roof) If the heat
> is trapped here you have a radiant ceiling panel
> and the roofing is being cooked. When the solar
> rays diminish the outside surface cools and the
> warm air condenses on the inner surface of the
> roof.
>
> A burner needs sufficient air and so
> does a ventilator fan.
>
> al
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True. But.....
Can you guarantee WHERE the air will come from? If the attic and the living area are connected the air will come from the house as well.
You can verify this with a simple blower door test.
High pressure goes to low pressure and if you depressurize the attic and there are air passages between the house and the attic, air from the house will travel to the lower pressure.
Passages between attic and house can be holes drilled by electricians, plumbers, and HVAC guys.
Look at a plumbing system in any home. It runs from the basement to the roof!! There is a HUGE path!!!! The plumbers don't seal all of the holes they cut do they?
Got an access hatch to the attic? Is it air tight?
There aren't air cops directing the air flow in any building. It will find the path of least resistance and will travel from ANY higher pressure to the lower pressure.
Now ask yourself this question, if the attic was ventilated correctly and the ceiling adequately insulated, why would you need to put attic fans in?
Stack effect is an amzing thing. Ever wonder why there are revolving doors in tall buildings? Think it's just for traffic flow? It's not.
Here's why.
Warm air will rise and exit a structure near the top. (Higher pressure there) Cold air will come in to replace the lost warm air at a lower point (Lower pressure there). Now in a building that is very tall this effect is magnified, so if you had a door that opened outward with the lower pressure, you wouldn't be able to open it. And if you had a door that opened inward, it would never close!.
There are SO many things happening in the structures that we work on. It's all physics.
Whole house fans are another issue all together. BTW, they have the potential of creating deadly situations in homes, not to mention the heat loss!!!!!
If you get a chance to attend a building sciences course, DO IT!!!!!
There is so much riding on what we do. Our customers have entrusted us with their well being and safety whether they know it or not.
I'm not saying that attic fans are bad, but unless you know what the TOTAL EFFECT on the dwelling is, you can't say they're good either.
I've rambled. Sorry.
Mark H
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Attic Fans Not the Only Thing
Those big, custom kitchen exhausts can move LOTS of air--they often need an air INLET in the kitchen sometimes with pre-heat! Good article in a fairly recent Fine Homebuilding regarding this.
Same is supposedly true for those "centralized" bathroom exhaust systems.
The more tightly we build homes, the worse this is going to get. Kind of makes me glad I live in an old home that despite insulation & tight windows is still a bit leaky...0 -
Glad to see my friends at NCI are
visiting the Wall now.......these guys are the best in the CO field Mad Dog
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National Comfort Institute (Wizaard)
I agree sir Mad Dog! This company has an outstanding educational program on CO and Air Side Diagnostics! Here is another little tidbit...they are putting together an association called National Comfort Team. There is a limited opportunity to be one of the founding members and then of course it is open to everyone to join. It is beyond the scope of this paragraph to list everything you get. So, cruise over to www.nationalinstitute.com and check it out.0 -
NCI Training
Frist I would like to thank Matt Sweeney for turning NCI on this web site it's great. If any contractors have issues on the air side of comfort contact NCI and we will be glad to help.800-633-7058 www.nationalinstitute.com or email me.
It's great seeing NCI Certified Contractors helping others in our industry,great stuff guys.Having the ability to communicate with the Carbon Monoxide Guru Jim Davis will keep a lot of people safe.0 -
Hi Al,
> Frist I would like to thank Matt Sweeney for
> turning NCI on this web site it's great. If any
> contractors have issues on the air side of
> comfort contact NCI and we will be glad to
> help.800-633-7058 www.nationalinstitute.com or
> email me.
>
> It's great seeing NCI Certified
> Contractors helping others in our industry,great
> stuff guys.Having the ability to communicate with
> the Carbon Monoxide Guru Jim Davis will keep a
> lot of people safe.
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Hi Al
I look forward to seeing you all in January. Hey, do you get any breezes off of the Great Lakes? Maybe I'll bring a wind breaker. I'm gonna take this air balance stuff to the moon and back.
The CO training has been very helpful, and has opened my eyes to things I never ever would have known.
Gary
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This discussion has been closed.
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