What should the RPA be doing for you?

Steve Ebels

The biggest hurdle in making radiant the default choice for heating is breaking the forced air indoctrination that is so common to builders/carpenters/general contractors orwhateveryouwanttocallem. In this area of Michigan, the builders don't even suggest it to their prospective clients. Why? They don't understand it, don't want to learn something new, don't want to give the customer any options that would inflate their price, to name a few reasons. The local homebuilders association lists $4,800 as the average price target for a heating system in their new home builders guide. Our average heating installation so far this year has been well over $15,000. It's difficult to overcome the inertia that the builders have as far as this perceived "correct" price is concerned.

Yet whenever I can talk to a customer face to face and explain radiant and/or panel heating systems, they are able to grasp the differences easily. The trick is getting in the home building loop early enough to be able to have some input.

In short the huge task for the RPA is marketing, getting radiant a common enough buzz word to be considered whenever construction is the topic. Running a close second would be education of installers. I have to say that at least half of the radiant systems I see around here are poorly done to the point that they don't and/or never will function properly. A big share of this problem stems from the fact that the installers don't involve themselves in the planning engineering part of the process. They just dump a print off at the "supply house", who sends it to who knows where, and you wind up with a scenario like the poor fellow that was on The Wall earlier this week. Doesn't work right now and never will in the current incarnation. The installer has to understand enough about radiant that he can design most systems himself.

JMHO

Michael - Warm Floors

What should the RPA be doing for you?

Suggestions for the RPA

As you may be aware, I am on the Board of Directors of the Radiant Panel Association. The RPA Board Meeting is coming up in about a week in Toronto. One of the topics we have been debating, over and over, is how the RPA can become more valuable to it’s members and the industry.

There are some who think we are doing just fine, doing what we can, and holding it together. There are others, me included, who think we should be doing a lot more, and believe we have not found our stride, as measured by slow growth in membership.

Which is not to say that we have been idle! I can’t even begin to list the programs, training, products, standards and such that are available and being developed, but you can survey them all on the RPA Website at http://www.radiantpanelassociation.org/

One recent project is the new “Flooring Guide” developed by Hoyt Corbett for the RPA. If you do not have a copy, and you are involved in radiant floor heating, get one! The other good thing we have done lately is get Dan to agree to speak at the next RPA Conference in Sacramento, CA in 2003. This will be the best RPA Conference ever; don’t miss it.

Most of you on this wall are not members. I presume you are all aware of the Association. Some have been members and dropped out. The RPA is certainly not perfect, but for now, it’s the only game in town, the only industry association focused on radiant.

So here is the question: What could the RPA do that would make you want to join? Why are you not a member now? If you are a member, what do you get out of it? What more would you want from your Association?

Yes, I have an agenda here. I want to see the Association grow by leaps and bounds. I want to see the RPA as the leading core of a surge in professionals engaged in Radiant Heating. I want to see radiant heating become the default solution for comfort conditioning. In order to do so, the Association must become customer-centric and responsive to member needs. So, what do you need? How could the RPA best help you increase your bottom line, live a better life, spend more time lounging on beaches?

If you send me your ideas, I’ll collect them, sort them and present them at the next Board meeting. Please do not overdo this; keep in mind we have a wide range of member interests; the RPA cannot solve the water heater/boiler debate, or squash all the slugs, or change the building codes, and we are not going to jump off a bridge. Be realistic, specific and brief in your ideas or they won’t be creditable. If you post them here, also please email them to me direct at mluttrell@warmfloors.com

Thanks, Michael Luttrell

heatboy

I agree with you, Michael.

I have some strong disagreements with certain aspects of the RPA, as you know. But I agree whole-heartedly with you in as much as it being the only game in town for radiant professionals. Over the years, I have joined, been annoyed, dropped out then joined again. It is not a perfect organization for the way I try to do things, but I need to be there to have my say on things.

I try to look at it now as "What can I do for the RPA?" Nothing can be changed from the outside.

Warm Regards,

heatboy

"Expert in Silent Warmth"™

610.250.9885

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John Felciano

The RPA

I like many others would like to see the RPA become an orginization of well trained certified contractors,suppliers,designers and manufactureres.And the new certification is a step in the right direction.The down side is we are still unable to restrict membership to those who are selling/installing sub standard systems and products.

I think the RPA could benifit all of us by better marketing radiant heat to the consumers.I'd like to see more information made available to the end consumer (Joe homeowner)

Everyone has heard of the Lenox man...I want every homeowner to know about the "Radiant man"

Just my two cents

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Chris_4

most of

the HO's in this area think radiant is great, but also think it is just for the rich.

Radiant has come a long way, and the word is out about how great it is, how much more comfortable it is. the problem is that not everyone can afford it YET!

We CAN compete, but not on every level. Price is a very large issue in this country, and the consumer that shops at wallmart, Home Depot, Lowes, wants satisfaction that they are getting a good deal at the best price.

Are we giving the best deal at the best price? The sellers of the "do it yourself" radiant kits are sure selling a lot of systems. I have seen quite a few of them the past couple months. We can't stop them from selling these systems, and we can't stop people from buying them.

We can't compete with price, so we have to compete with comfort, quality, savings (long and short term), service, and customer satisfaction.

Maybe getting the mechanical inspectors in every state educated and certified in proper radiant design and installation?

Can the RPA push for legislation to have the inspectors trained and certified? They are trained and certified for forced air systems! Why not Radiant?

The RPA needs us to help them!

my 20 cents!

Chris

heatboy

Affordability?

What exactly does that mean? A person building a new home can "afford" to hire Morris Black to design and install a kitchen, but scoff when I tell them the radiant floor heating will be $10 per square foot. Am I supposed to lower my price and standards so they can have both? I don't think so. Let them buy their kitchen a Home Depot, then spend the important monies on the comfort systems. It is my opinion that not everyone deserves radiant! I have no time or desire to change the way the world thinks or spends money. One client at a time is the only way I can appoach it.

hb

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Paul Rohrs

Wholesale/RPA

It is interesting to me that after Dan has discussed the changes that the Keyspan organization is introducing, that now HAS to be the time we pull together. I am involved in the wholesale arena and I think the RPA and wholesaler alliance should be further advanced. Shooting from the hip, I think my RPA contactor accounts should have greater discounts for staying current. We offer 2% 10th Net 30 terms which I think are a standard. How about 5% terms? We have a tremendous amount to offer, and will go the extra mile for service to keep you from buying and Home Cheapo,direct from Rep Agencies, etc. We (wholesalers) have to stay on the cutting edge of Value Added Service to keep your business. The trend in our market is for contractors to not pay their bills until 90-120 days, and then not pay finance charges. Winnelsons don't have to be the biggest to be the best, but contractors are our life blood. If a contractor makes a request, we are all ears. I think the RPA would do well to seek wholesale support much like Rep agencies do. Just a thought.

Paul

Warmfoot

Kind of off the subject of RPA

I think any added discount to the contractor for staying current is great. Here is a thought that I have tried to bring up to one of my wholesalers. Myself as a full service contractor meaning I do my own heat calcs, I have more knowledge than the wholesaler and when I order materials from the wholesaler, most of the time I order through the manufacturers rep who then runs it through the wholesaler on my behalf. Shouldn't a contractor that is "self-supportive" get a bigger discount than the contractor who relies on the wholesaler to hold his hand through the entire process? Something for the wholesalers out there to think about! Thanks for hearing my sudden venting!!!

Ernie Bogue
Master Hydronics LLC
PO Box 779
Keyport, WA 98345
(360) 394-2049

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Henry_4

The distribution channel

that the majority of us use is Manufacturer...distributor...HVAC contractor...builder...end user. Granted, some builders give more lee way to their HVAC team in speaking directly to the end user and in many cases, at least with the HVAC partners that I deal with, more boiler systems go in. Why? The guys that I work / design with believe in the Viessmann equipment they are using and promote it even though it is more money, I have spent the time teaching, it has paid off, my partners are happy and share the performance stories.
Fast forward to the RPA show in Cinnci this past year, great show, I know many of the people that walk the aisles, they are the same ones that walk the aisles every year. They are the same ones that show up at every training, and more power to them for investing the time in being part of something.
However, until the RPA and radiant for that matter can break out of the niche that it is in, it will continue to be a sideline. ACCA and the PHCC are both organizations that work with the HVAC channel, but they have a lot of members and call themselves "mainstream". They get a synergy and move forward (I am not saying that they are any better than any other organization). My point, RPA has a strong core of believers (do I have a witness?) but the RPA needs to find ways to get more people other than just HVAC professionals in and excited about boiler (yes, boiler) heat and the flexibility that is afforded to the end user through the utilization of hot water. Consider how many builders and end users love to talk about wood floors, custom cabinets and Kohler faucets. I know those things are sexy and glamorous, but the plumber sure appreciates the fact that somebody is out there talking about sexy faucets and mom is excited about it (SERIOUS SYNERGY). Until then, the RPA will have many good people involved, but it will just be a fringe because the unwashed masses will stay away installing the same boring thing they have installed for the last 47 years (and my forced air works fine thank you very much, just ask my seven builders that do not know any different and use me).
I realize that this does not excuse me from my duty of promoting my system and explaining the benefits to every Tom **** and Harry that will listen. But if the RPA wants to make things happen, the RPA needs to become recognized as a mainstream player and help not just the core, but especially end users and builders to recognize that the boiler is the heart of the ultimate heating system when it comes to comfort, efficiency and flexibility and get non HVAC professionals excited about what we offer. That alone will bring in members like no one will believe. Until then, the RPA is a fringe group that will appeal only to those that have the money to do something (I know this next word is hard for many to comprehend and accept) DIFFERENT.
Chances are I am not saying anything that Mike Ackmann has not already thought of, but if the RPA had a membership drive and twenty five people signed up because their primary builders said "Their must be a better way than a 90% two stage, I think you should learn more about sexy radiant for my upcoming projects", we would witness a major change in the US HVAC establishment.
More rantings from the fringe....
Henry

Note: Hopefully I did not utterly miss the point of the question and Mike Ackmann will still talk to me the next time I see him.

Michael Warm Floors

Asking the question in a different way:

Those are a lot of good ideas, and most have, at one time or another, been discussed. In order to look at our industry and members in a different way, let me ask these:

1. As a professional involved in the field of radiant heating, where do you see the major obstacles to industry growth?

2. Specifically, in your day-to-day work, what are your greatest problems and challenges?

3. If you could change one feature or aspect of this business, what would it be?

Keep 'em coming and I'll keep passing them on.

PS: I'm leaving tomorrow night for Toronto, so if you want to contribute to this thread, and have it passed on to the Board, don't wait much longer. Thanks.
Michael