Help with Heating

Pam

Hello!

I live on Long Island NY and am considering having a new heating system installed in our 1600 sq ft two story cape.

We have an oil burner system now, with no separate hot water heater. The system is VERY inefficient. In fact, I have to almost close off the hot water valve (decreasing hot water pressure) to get any hot water in the shower. I have the coil cleaned once a year which helps a little. Radiant heat in the floor downstairs and radiators upstairs (not the big cast iron ones. These are sort of flush to the wall with slit vents along the upper half)

A few questions now that you have the history:

1. Without room for a separate hot water heater, what are my options for better heating and hot water?

2. I can't find an energy efficiency rating on my equipment - how can I determine whether installing a new system will REALLY save money.

3. I have read that furniture can be placed in front of baseboard heaters. Can this also be done with the type of radiators I have upstairs? The rooms are small and I would like to utilize the wall space where the radiator is. Should I have baseboard heating installed?

Thanks for your time!

Pam

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Hot water

Let's work on #1 first. From the sound of it, your boiler has a tankless coil. Seems as though this was a good idea, but I see a lot of complaints about them on this forum. I don't like them for the simple reason that you have to always keep the boiler fired, day and night, summer and winter.

Sixteen hundred square feet and no room for a water heater; that's a tough one. I'd recommend finding room for an indirect water heater; it doesn't have to be next to the boiler; it doesn't even have to be in the same room. Put it in the attic or build an enclosure outside the house.

Another option is a "flash" type water heater like a Takagi or Rinaii. These two brands are excellent. They heat the water as it flows through the heater; no storage. I don't know if they make them for oil, though.

Best wishes,

Alan Forbes

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Steve Levine

I'll do #2 first

If it is a radiator, or baseboard heater, air has to get into the bottom. In either case, if the furniture has legs, it will allow the air into the bottom section. Even with baseboard, if the furniture goes flat to the floor, it will significantly reduce the output of heat.

Regarding #1, tankless coils on Long Island do not do well, especially over a period of time. Alan is correct, you need storage and should find a place somewhere for it. Second choice would be to have the tankless coil replaced. that will help for a few years.

Mike Kraft

Pam...........

The European manufacturers offer an indirect water heater that is horizontal.The boiler is lifted ontop and bolted to the indirect.This allows both the heating appliance and a very nice upgrade with storage,compared to your existing system.

Breifly,an indirect water heater is a thermos(if you will).It holds cold water fed from your water utility.It has a coil of pipe inside that has the connections on the outside of the tank.This coil is connected to the boiler.Inside the tank is a thermostat (aquastat) which you set to your desired hot water temperature.As you draw from the tank the thermostat will tell the boiler when to allow flow of hot boiler water to circulate through the coil inside your "thermos".This type of system has a very good recovery and is substantially much more efficient then what you have now.The longevety of these tanks are also very good.I like Buderus,it brings quite a bit to the table as far as dependability and servicability.The tanks have a very low stand-by loss.Remember.....its a thermos!

As far as a rating........You cant find one eh?Your oil service CO. should be providing you with that information at the annual service and cleaning.You should be able to compare this with the current A.F.U.E. labels on the appliances you are considering.

As far as putting furniture in front of hot water baseboard(HWBB) and cast iron radiators(CIR).I wouldnt reccomend it.HWBB need air flow to allow the design of it to work.HWBB actually convects and as the air moves the hot air rises and the cold air falls.In turn it goes under the HWBB cabinet and is convected up again.The CIR's on the second floor will radiate!Very cozy.The more they are covered the less comfy you will feel:)

There are many ways to work with the emitters you own now.Radiant floor is very desireable(as long as yours isnt leaking).Ways that will improve your comfort and lower your fuel cost.Just remember Pam,no free lunch........advice maybe:) but a smooth running efficient system need TLC and design!

Try the navigating bar to the top left of this page.Click on Heating Q&A.Dan has provided uch free advice for all.......and its probably a great idea to buy a couple of his books.Educate yourself before you spend your hard earned bucks.

Also try his "Find a Contractor" feature.

Good Luck,

cheese

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

i would

use the tankless and bank the hot water in a storage tank, and for efficiency i go by averages, for my area you might expect to spend $600 to $800 per year. if your in that neighborhood i wouldn't change the boiler. bob

Unknown

Pam , sounds like youre in a Levitt house ?

We install quite a few boilers in homes with minimal space on Long Island . In my own Levitt house I have a coil in my boiler and it does fine for hot water with 5 people in the house . Its been in for over 6 years now . Matter of fact , we use a coil most of the time in new boilers , with a bare minimum of complaints . And I think the coil gets a bad rap - we routinely ask the customer how the hot water was in their old boiler , and the majority say it worked great .

As for number 2 , any chance you can put a picture up so we can take a look ? Does the boiler look like its original ? Typically the average savings on oil from the original boiler to a new one is in the 20 to 30 percent range .

If there are a few of you in the family , and need the extra hot water capacity , there are always places to find a spot for a hot water tank . Good luck , Ron

Pam

Thanks Everyone!

I just want to thank everyone for their input. I never thought about the air flow for the radiators. Last winter, we took our bed off the frame and dropped it on the floor (I was afraid that our baby would fall off of it when she slept with us) That whole winter I complained that our room was freezing! Well, the mattress is in front of the radiator. The vents aren't covered, but the bottom is cut off by the mattress!

Ron - yes, this is basically a Levitt house - where in the heck could I put a water storage tank? My washing machine is already uunder the stairs (which is next to the closet housing the boiler).

What concerns me is that the hot water is great - if I keep the pressure turned all the way down (valve at the boiler). If I open it up, I guess the water runs passed the coil too fast and doesn't heat up. If I close it down, there is zero pressure out of the hot water taps, but the trickle is hot. Is this common for my type of boiler?

The other issue is my inability to control the temp of the hot water. I have to keep it pretty high (way above the recommended 140F to prevent scalding)

And, of course, when one wants to shower, the heat in the house has to be turned off at the thermostats - or else that water is cold!

As far as coil cleaning - they always try to talk me into having the pipes cleaned as well - for ALOT more money - what is the story with that?

This is a great site! I am really learning a lot from you guys!

Pam

Unknown

Pam

If youre in a Levitt cape like I am , we usually fit a storage tank or an indirect heater right behind where the boiler sits under the stairs . But if the washer is in there , sometimes we install the tank upstairs in a closet , if one is close .

But a new boiler with a new internal coil will solve your hot water problems - unless you really need extra hot water cpacity . How many people live in the house and how many baths ? Do you have a hot tub ? Most of our boilers are installed in houses with 2 full baths and they produce enough hot water .

Our experience is that if you have to have the coil cleaned routinely , its time for the upgrade on a new coil - if the boiler is fairly new - or a new boiler . With the cost of the cleaning and the savings on oil , the boiler will pay for itself in no time . And I wouldnt worry about the pipes being cleaned - if theyre copper they usually dont need it . Good luck with your hot water , Ron .