Non-Oxygen Barrier Tubing

hr

Funny you should ask. This product has been under development for a year now. It is the first one I know of that the chemist identified ALL the various metals used in modern hydronic systems and tested inhibitors, O2 scavangers, and film providers to by compatiable with all them at various temperatures. It doesn't contain nitrite, like many others, which may attack aluminum.

The DIN standard does reconize chemical treatment as an acceptable method of handleing the non barrier issues. With any chemical or glycol treatment, however, ongoing monitoring is important, as is a good cleaning before adding the treatment.

hot rod

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Bill Riordan_3

Looked at a job where 5/8 wirsbo tubing was installed in slab 15 years ago.The tubing was never connected to the boiler.The homeowner filled the tubing with automotive antifreeze and since the tubing has sat idle.The customer would like to connect the radiant tubing to the boiler and the tubing does not have an oxygen barrier.How quickly will this arrangement destroy the existing system and are there any effects of the antifreeze siiting in the tubing for 15 years? I realize that the tubing can be isolated from the ferrous boiler, yet the homeowner is not willing to pay the additional cost. He feels the existing system is old and is willing to gamble that it will last another 5 years.If he likes the radaint floor heating, he understands that the new boiler system would have to be isolated. Thanks for any input.

hr

Questions

First off I would flush the anti freeze and recycle it. Take it to Quick Lube, they generally will recycle it. Automotive anti freeze should not be used in a hydronic system. The inhibitor in that type of anti freeze will compromise the boiler.

Does the system really need anti freeze? I would highly recommend isolating the boiler as you indicated, or use all non ferrous components. Maybe a copper tube boiler and stainless or bronze pump.

How long will iron or steel last connected to non barrier, good question! Operating temperatures has a bit to do with O2 infusion. How hot will this system operate.

I'd say do it right or move on. You may be the one "on the line" when the system starts to sludge or go bad. And trust me things will go bad, someday. Is it worth it?

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Riles

What he said

> First off I would flush the anti freeze and

> recycle it. Take it to Quick Lube, they

> generally will recycle it. Automotive anti

> freeze should not be used in a hydronic system.

> The inhibitor in that type of anti freeze will

> compromise the boiler.

>

> Does the system really

> need anti freeze? I would highly recommend

> isolating the boiler as you indicated, or use all

> non ferrous components. Maybe a copper tube

> boiler and stainless or bronze pump.

>

> How long

> will iron or steel last connected to non barrier,

> good question! Operating temperatures has a bit

> to do with O2 infusion. How hot will this system

> operate.

>

> I'd say do it right or move on. You

> may be the one "on the line" when the system

> starts to sludge or go bad. And trust me things

> will go bad, someday. Is it worth it?

>

> hot

> rod

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,

> Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A

> Contractor"_/A_

Riles

What he said.

Hot Rod always delivers the facts.

With Non-Barrier; the severity and timelines are in direct proportion to the amount of non-barrier tubing versus the amount of ferrous material. Regardless, barrier tubing is like a good insurance policy, without that policy when something goes bad it can really be bad.

Isolate the ferrous components from the Non-Barrier tubing or walk away.

Cosmo

Careful for the trap

Have had these bad apples, customer is all smiles and understands that if not done right it will ruin boiler....he is really thinking "blah, blah, blah". When things go wrong all of a sudden he conveniently forgets your cautions and tells everyone you don't know what your doing. Follow hr's advice, do it right or walk away.

Cas

kevin

another option...

would be to put in a seperate system for the slab alone. ie gas or electric water heater (used maybe) w/ all NON ferrous components. wont kill the old boiler, gives him thre taste he is looking for... kpc

heatboy

I've seen,,,,,,,,,,

more than a couple of jobs in my area that have AquaPex instead of hePex. Seems one of my competitors has found the way to make radiant available to everyone! ;-) Follow hr's advice and wave bye-bye from the highway if he is not going to do it correctly. You could end up in a Perry Mason show when things start to go bad. Even if you get him to write off on this, is your reputation worth a couple of bucks?

Warm Regards,

heatboy

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Royboy2

polybutylene ...?

wondering if any of you would care to comment on the implications of my own 17 yr old system with polybutylene tubing in a slab now connected to a ferrous Buderus wood-fired boiler (along with a homemade off-peak electric heat source). I don't know that oxygen barriers were even being discussed back then (I wasn't in the loop if they were) or whether it's an issue with polybutylene. Wouldn't like to trash my boiler, though...

hr

PB

once again temperature plays heavily into the corrosion issue. I visited my first own radiant system several years ago. Installed in 1985, Teledyne Mini Therm three ball valves balanced for mixing control. Aside from a few thermocouples and a zone valve it has worked well. I maintained the glycol, as does the current owner.

It is a low temperature thin slab application, that helps a lot.

On the other hand I have seen plenty of solar roll and PB systems that have destroyed pumps, expansion tanks, and in some cases plugged the small diameter solar roll beyond repair. In every case they were high temperature staple up applications. Ya just never know what you'll find.

Hydronics is like a box of chocolates.....

hot rod

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Royboy2

corrosion inhibitor

any value in adding a "corrosion inhibitor" to the system? a local supplier gave me a bag of an unidentified white powdery substance for a system once, saying to add a handful to minimize corrosion. Are there other such products out there that are effective and compatible with iron & PEX or PB?

Ed Holleman

Radiant heating using Poly-B

A few years ago when I added a 750 sg. ft addition to my house in the form of a double garage with workshop and laundry room with a master BR suite on the second floor I installed poly B in the concrete floor so that down the road I could hook up a radiant thermal floor system.
The other day I had problems with my furnace and had the plumber come and repair it. While he was there I discussed with him finshing up my radiant system and discovered the issues that was surrounding poly B. He recommended that I use an alternative heat source because of these problems, ( suggested I hookup 220 and run a constuction heater with a thermstat). However I would still like to use the thermal system and have been doing alot of research on the net to see if I can help reduce the problems associated with poly b. I have all the materials already and can't very well return them as they have been purchased and stored for a few years now. I will be using a dedicated natural gas hot water tank as my boiler, I have 3 poly b loops in the floor, using a small B&G pump with copper manifold, no joints any where in poly b. I understand that copper bands are the best way to crimp polyB to manifold if crimper is calibrated properly.It is a low pressure open type system. Our city water has a fair amount of chlorine in it.My questions are:
1) Is there a way to treat the water to eliminate the chlorine problems associated with polyB.
2) What is the best material and method of attatching the polyB to the copper fittings on the manifold to prevent future splitting or leakage?
Note: It will be all copper piping from manifold to Gas hotwater tank and back.
3)What if any additives such as glycol or rhomar 922 should be used to help extend the life of the polyB and system?
4) Since the water heater is the only thing I have left to purchase is there a better and as cost effective solution as a 33 gallon gas hot water tank?
Any help or assistance would be greatly appreciated>
Ed

Royboy2

inhibitors, etc

thanks to all of you for your generousity in sharing info. as much as I'd prefer to not think of myself this way, I'm probably one of those who know's just enough to be dangerous ...

so, I'm about to open up and expand my system this winter, adding 50% to the load. I can imagine adding whatever would be best to add to a PB system - this Rhomar 922, if that's recommended. At this point I have PB, copper, brass, iron, steel, and a bit of galvanized steel in the system. Will be adding PEX (with barrier) [what's the shorthand on this board - bPEX? hePEX?].

2 questions:

1) how to best clean system prior to recharging?
2) what best to add for future protection - Rhomar? other?

Roy

hr

I'm confused, Ed

You said you are considering a dedicated water heater for a heat source, but futher down you said it is an open system?

I'd stay away from combined radiant and domestic systems. Use a seperate (closed) heat source for the radiant and the chlorine issue will not be a concern. An initial fill of chlorinated water probably would not hurt the PB, unless the chlorine level is off the map!

The PB copper rings worked fine and are still used today by many for pex connections. Over crimping was an issue with the actel fittings, causing them to crack. Copper barb fittings will not be a problem with a crimper. Compression fittings are available if you are real concerned, or don't have a crimp tool.

750 square feet would probably be a load or 20,000 BTU/ hr or less, depending on the construction of the building. BTU load would be about right for a basic water heater. Not many boilers in that BTU range, and unless you use a condensing boiler you will need a mixing system of some sort.

We are all patiently waiting for the 50,000 modulating Munchkin That would be a perfect fit for your load and temperature requirements.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the PB, probably last your lifetime! On such a small system at low temperatures you should be fine. PB is still sold in Great Britian and places in Europe for domestic and radiant applications. Treated right it should be long lasting.

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hr

Cleaners

I have been beta testing a Rhomar cleaner for hydronic systems also. It is not quite ready for distribution, lots of government stuff to do to bring a new product out. There are various brands of hydronic cleaners out there. TSP is still considered a relativly safe and easy to obtain product. 1-2% run it up to temperature for a few days and flush well.

What I like about Rhomar is they made a list of all the components and materials that could be found in a hydronic system. The chemists spent a year building a product that would "get along" well with all.

Aluminum throws most inhibitors for a loop, as does the zinc coating on galvanized fittings. With the wide spread acceptence of PAP tubing it was critical to build an inhibitor that would not attack these thin layers should the fluid ever "see" even a small amount of the aluminum.

The other metals you mentioned are also found in many systems and all require a certain chemical to protect them, and just the right products for oxygen scanvengers, film providers and ph buffers. A tall order!

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KCA_2

O2 Barrier


With non O2 barrier tubing, If a system is maintained with givin chemicals o2 diffusion isn't a problem. The problem is where a system is installed and the company walks away thinking "well.. Thats it!". A radiant is like a Corvette.. It takes alot of regular maintenance for it to run right.. We have yearly checkups where I have a 20 line item check list.

Chemicals to raise the pH and to coat the ferous metals are cheap and easy to provide to the system. Glycol manufactures don't attempt to mitigate O2. They deal with the pH. So why do we deal with the O2. Coat the metals...

By the way.. When Glycol goes acidic you don't need to change it. Just add more pH enhancer. That is if a system even needs glycol. It does pull efficiancy away from a system.

If you're interested, E-mail me for more specific details.

KCA :-)