customer purchased equipment

ed wallace

I was wondering how other contractors would handle the following situation
landlord wants to replace 2 electric furnaces equiped with
5 ton cooling units wants price on Trane 90 plus units
gave him price on furnaces only plus 10% mark up he now wants to install Janatrol or Goodman units my feeling is to walk away from job let him find another company to do work
customer will do gas line himself has friend who will pull permit so he says any input would be appreciated
thank you

Bill_14

Walk away !!

GW

Careful not to ride the High Horse

I got some great advice a while back... Times are a changing, it's not like it was in the old days. If you have enough work, by all means drop it. If you could use the work, plan in you normal rate plus normal mark-up, and just hand him your install price. I too used to get riled up with customer supplied stuff, now I just sit back and smile because sometimes I'll take in MORE CASH. Go ahead, let them be the hero by buying their own stuff! You make you living as a tecnician, not as a retailer, right?

Gary

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Cosmo

I agree

Gary. If you give the customer a good installation, the cust. will se that he/she did'nt save that much if anything (keep in mind you may not have a lot of experiance working with the cheap junk the cust. buys and you wind of using up more labor). I had two occasions where this exact senario occured, in the end the customer became loyal and trusted me to buy everything from then on. It is hard sometimes to gain a person's trust, but once gained these can be the best customers to have.
Casmo

hr

Warranty issues

can be a sticky issue with owner supplied equipment. Address that up front.

hot rod

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keith

Works out good either way

We recently installed a pre purchased 600 ton chiller. The customer bought it direct because of the long lead times and bid process. The chiller did not come thru as described and we got an extra to open the foundation larger than anticipated as well as have a ceiling removed to accomadate the rigger. The responcibility can get shifted a way from you and back to the owner or customer. Either way has its advantages. i don't get myself to riled up about this issue any longer. Life is to short and as long as every one buys into warranty and liability issues you make out.

Cosmo

This is where

the homeowner loses all the money they think they saved by buying their own stuff.
Casmo

kevin

Don't WA

> I was wondering how other contractors would

> handle the following situation landlord

> wants to replace 2 electric furnaces equiped

> with 5 ton cooling units wants price on Trane 90

> plus units gave him price on furnaces only

> plus 10% mark up he now wants to install Janatrol

> or Goodman units my feeling is to walk away from

> job let him find another company to do work

> customer will do gas line himself has friend who

> will pull permit so he says any input would be

> appreciated thank you

Steve Ebels

One Caveat

I routinely do installations that involve equipment not supplied by my company. HOWEVER! It is done after the other party signs a legal document, drafted by my attorney, absolving me from any and all warranty and/or service responsibilty for said equipment. In fact the bottom line is that we are only responsible for problems directly related to the installtion itself. Also on this document is a place where I can fill in what equipment I recommend for the task at hand. The contracting party also has to sign acknowledging that they have refused to use recommended equipment. Haven't ever had any trouble on these jobs but I expect someday the contract will save my bacon.

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Pat

who buys equipment

If you are busy and uncomfortable with the situation walk away. Otherwise quote job flat rate or hourly what ever you like just for install only w/understanding all materials provided by homeowner. Once you have a deposit and signed contract provide a detailed list of all materials required for the job, right down to the screws. Specify a date materials to arrive on the job, have a per hour arrangement in contract if materials are missing or damaged for your time to track down. It can work with some up front planning. If you are uncomfortable with the brand equipment chosen don't do it or add more money to your labor bill for your time to read the directions extra. Traditionally we mark-up equipment because we are handling it and financing it with the supply house. If you are no longer doing that get paid for your install time, skills, knowledge, quote time, overhead, extras. In the long run I don't think the homeowner saves, but if that is what they want, okay.
Good Luck.

PJO

This \"H.O.\" did it...

and it worked out well. I designed the system and specified all the equipment (obtained through a supply house and I "tipped" my friend for the purchase...he's an A/C guy).

I had the techs working with me on an hourly basis, agreed beforehand. I did as much labor myself if I could, which saved me considerable money (but not my back in the short-term!). The stuff I didn't do included final boiler and oil tanks hook-ups, initial firing/combustion testing, and most pipe sweating...it's not pretty or efficient when I do it :-)

I don't regret this...even if my boiler will have a problem. I saved some money, got a great education, and made a few great friends.

This way was the only scenario possible for getting the system I wanted...the way I wanted. Maybe I'm a nut, and maybe I got lucky, but it was worth it. I was smart enough to know my limits, and to this day Glenn comes by once a year to clean and run his combustion analysis, then bless it...and when I call him for service (one A/C condenser capacitor went this year) he gets top dollar - as he should.

Jusy my thoughts. Take care, PJO

Cosmo

Thank You...

I have Already had a couple customers just like you, and I wish I had more. Now you know just how much work went into your system, and you understand more of how it is suppose to work than most H.O.'s. But just one thing- it is hard to make a material list "down to every screw". This is impossible to know, we give an estimate based on our experience of past jobs, and what we think we will need on this particular job, plus a little room for unkowns. To give a completely detailed list of exactly all pieces to be used would a job in itself!
Thanks
Casmo

PJO

List...

Casmo,

I made two lists, basically; one for the radiation end and one for the boiler room. The list was pretty detailed and yes, we did have an item here or there that was missed. I just "walked down" the piping in my head - or as Dan puts it, in my mind's eye. I also have a good-sized box of spare (leftover) fittings :-)

For the piping (both fittings for radiant/baseboard and near boiler) it was fairly easy for me because I have some experience with systems - although larger. The guys that I worked with were a huge help...especially Bill M who did the boiler room. The electrical end was figured mostly by him, and the final hookups and OSV's (added at the end) were done by Glenn.

For Wallies, I could see an excel spreadsheet or something for this (I did it by hand) that could be used for each job if you have the computer skills. It would be a bit tough to start with, but may save you many headaches down the road. I'm sure there's lots of ideas out there.

All in all, an estimate from past jobs with a slight fudge factor might be okay most of the time, and if you have a big job then you would spend some extra time figuring your costs anyway, right?

Hope this helps, and take care. PJO

Bill_14

Walk Away Explanation

The thoughts that have been provided for you are all good ideas and descent suggestions. However, you should consider this job as you described. You make 10% of some amount (10%!!) and this "customer" even has someone do the gas piping of all things. If this is the ONLY work you can get, then go for it. I'll guarantee you that this owner will never be a good customer for you with his present mindset.

Think of what else you might be able to do for yourself for the time and exposure you would have doing this job. Maybe you could do a more profitable job, maybe you could spend the time marketing your business, getting caught up on loose ends, clean out your truck, etc.

The contractors in our town started adding full markup to all owner-furnished equipment...this "new wrinkle" all started in the late 70's. It was used under the guise of saving lead time, but it was clear the owners (with the able assistance from the architect) thought they would save money.

The good owner will assign his pre-purchase to the mechanical contractor prior to bid time so the contractor knows and understands what he is going to install, has an opportunity to include warranty and start-up costs and includes markup in his bid.

For those of you that bid a job without knowing what equipment is being furnished, I say "good luck". Pleading ignorance should be no grounds for an extra (change order) if pipe sizes needed changed, pads needed enlarged, electrical services needed revised, room too small, etc. These coordination items are totally up to the bidding contractor and the information is always available. If it isn't available, don't bid the job.

Good luck.
Bill Russell

ed wallace

thanks for the insight

to all that responded thank you it is helpful
to get feed back from others who have been there
thanks again