oil burner/boiler questions

joe pro

I have some heating concerns regarding the proper spray angle for the nozzle that should be used as well as proper aquastat settings. I have a 2-year old Riello R40 F5 burner on a on-year old cast iron Burnham V84 oil-fired boiler with a tankless heater (which has a heater rating of 3.5 GPM). According to the Riello burner specs (as stated in a table in the Burnham Boiler Manual), the pump pressure for the Riello gun is rated at 145psi for use with V84 Burnham boiler. The boiler capacity is rated from 1.05 GPH/147 MBH (with a DOE heating capacity of 127 MBH and a I=B=R Net Rating of 110 MBH) to 1.35 GPH/189 MBH (with a DOE of 159 MBH and a I=B=R of 138 MBH). For best efficiency, Burnham recommends that, when using the Riello R40 F5 head, one should use a 0.90 GPH x 80 degree nozzle with an air gate setting of 3.75 and a turbulator setting of 1.0. My oil burner service company had done the installation and maintenance of the equipment to date. Last year when they installed the new boiler, they had taken the Riello head (one years old at that time) off of the old boiler and put it onto the new boiler and subsequently used a nozzle size of 1.0 GPH x 60 degrees with the new boiler. The other day, when they did the yearly maintenance, they used the same size nozzle as what they had used a year earlier when they had originally installed the boiler. Being concerned about obtaining the best possible efficiency, as well as trying to ensure that the spray angle of the nozzle that was being used was not going to cause any problems, I called Burnham directly. The rep there stated that the 1.0 GPH size nozzle is usable but that the .90 GPH would of course give the best efficiency. No surprise there. However, he was concerned about the fact that my oil burner servicing company was using a 60 degree spray as opposed to an 80 degree spray angle. He believed that it should have an 80 degree spray nozzle, because if one were to use a 60 degree spray it could cause too much build up of soot, thus resulting in poorer and poorer heat transfer as time went on and subsequently less efficiency. He suggested that I call my oil burner service company up and explain my concerns and convey to them what Burnham was recommending for what the nozzle should be for use on their own equipment, which I did. I spoke with the servicing manager and relayed all of this to him. He countered that the reason why their service technicians are using a 60 degree spray nozzle on my equipment is that they have found (allegedly through experience) that they are able to obtain the most optimum flame for use with my equipment with regards to the draft of my setup. He went on to say that if they were to have used an 80 degree spray nozzle that it wouldn't fire properly in order to provide for the best possible flame and that it would create too much smoke given the draft condition of my setup. He also is trying to justify his contentions that the nozzle that they used is appropriate by alleging that the specs given in the Burnham manual for the nozzle are only recommended and that they are based upon laboratory conditions (which, according to Burnham's manual, happens to be: 13.0% CO2 with No.1 maximum smoke and -0.02 inches water column over fire draft). He also went on to say that the nozzle ratings listed in the Riello manual for the R40 F5 model allows for the usage of nozzles of .90 GPH up to 1.10 GPH with either a 60 degrees spray angle as well as an 80 degree spray angle for the boiler model that I have. Nevertheless, the latest combustion efficiency analysis readings that they did on my boiler with the 1.0 GPH x 60 degree hollow nozzle is as follows: -3 draft, 0 smoke, 11.5% CO2, stack temp of 400 degrees and an efficiency of 83%.

Is what the service manager of my oil burner company telling me totally valid or do you think that only some of what he was saying was true while some of what he was saying was skewed in their favor in order to consume more oil?
Do you think that I should be concerned about the 60 degree spray angle of the nozzle being used, especially since Burnham recommends the 80 degree nozzle, despite the fact that Burnham had determined the proper nozzle rating under laboratory conditions?
Shouldn't I be concerned about the possibility that the narrower flame obtained with the 60 degree nozzle would result in the flame hitting the back wall of the combustion chamber more so than with the 80 degree nozzle?
Wouldn't one hold more weight in what the manufacturer is stating versus what the oil burner company is stating? After all, it would seem to not be in the best interest of the oil burner company (that I am also purchasing oil from) to set my equipment up for best possible efficiency.

The other concern that I had was with the high, low and differential settings on my aquastat. Burnham states that the low should be set for 160 degrees, the high at 180 and the differential at 25 degrees in order to get the longer burning cycles thereby helping to result in best possible efficiency. My oil burner service company states that the differential should be set between 10 and 15 degrees and that they would definitely not set it any higher than 15 degrees. They stated that if it was set at 25 degrees that would result in a longer amount of time that the water was cooling off before the burner kicked on again and that could then result in it taking longer for the house to heat up if there was a demand for heat at a point at which the water was cooling off before getting to the low temperature as dictated by the swing in the differential temp setting. The same would also be true if there was a demand for water at a similar point in time. Do you think that what my oil burner service company is telling me is true. Should I leave the differential setting alone - at 15 degrees - like the way that they had set it to? Should I set the differential to something like 20 degrees - something in between what Burnham was recommending and what my oil burner service company had set it to? Or should I bring it to 25 degrees as per Burnham recommendations?
What about the low and high settings? Do you recommend leaving the low at 160 and the high at 180 for the winter, but adjusting the low to 140 and the high to 160 for the summer?

eleft_4

who do you trust

are you cold & do you run out of hot water?

83% aint bad!


al

Unknown

Joe

Your oil company is correct in choosing the best angle and size nozzle to acheive optimum performance based any given draft condition. The recommended burner settings are for a boiler/burner being tested in laboratory conditions. The .90 gph nozzle is used only for a down-fire setup. The factory provided burner nozzle size would generally be a 1.20 gph nozzle. Trust your oil technician's judgement in using the 1.10 gph nozzle and 60 degree pattern. The test results look good so I would not change them.

Setting the differential will account for a longer burn time while the burner is operating to maintain temperature for domestic hot water. We advise setting for 25°F so that the burner will remain on longer while you are using hot water. This will NOT affect the temperature at which the burner turns on. The burner always turns on when the temperature drops 10°F below the low limit setting and will remain on until the temperature has risen by the differential setting, provided there is no call for heat. On a call for heat, the burner will turn on when the temperature is 10°F below the high limit setting and will rise to the high limit setting and turn off.

An example would be a Low Limit of 160°F and High Limit of 180°F with a 25°F Differential. When there is no call for heat, the burner will turn on when the temperature drops 10°F below the Low Limit or 150°F and will stay on until the temperature has risen by the differential (25°F) or to 175°F. When a call for heat is encountered, the boiler will cycle between the high limit of 180°F and a 10°F fixed differntial or 170°F. The differential setting is up to your preference, but a larger differential will result in better sustained tankless heater performance. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Corp.

John@Reliable

From a techs point of view

Sounds to me that all the co is doing is right! Manu. specs. don't always work for every set-up,as far as diff. temp I like them at 25 degrees, seems to let boiler stay cleaner. Hope this helps

jim bannister

burnham riello

I just worked on this exact same setup this morning. I have serviced this model for over two years now. The nozzle being used in the riello f40 is .85/60/w. This unit runs at 82 and a half efficiency. When I clean it evry year, the sections are clear and spotless. The house is multizoned and heats fine along with good hot water. Calling Burnham and getting information over the telephone is the same as obtaining it in a public forumn such as this. It is meant as a GUIDE only.

joe pro

Just trying to ensure best possible efficiency

Hi Al,

I'm not cold (since my wife likes to keep the house cozy - which, as far as I'm concerned is a little too cozy and therefore is a matter of contention, but that's another matter), and generally speaking, I do not run out of hot water for the most part. However, sometimes in the mornings though, when I wake up and get in the shower and turn on the hot water, despite the fact that the programmable thermostat has been set to 45 degrees throughout the summer and there has not been a demand for heating the house, there have been occasions wherein I will have hot water at first and then, as the water continues to run, the temperature of the water will not remain as hot as it was when I had first turned it on. On the other hand, there are occasions wherein I don't have a problem with running out of hot water throughout the duration of the morning shower.

I realize that 83% efficiency is preety darn good, however, since it was 83.5% efficient last year and now, only one year later, it is down by 0.5%, I am concerned about the efficiency going down by 0.5% each subsequent year and I would like to have the piece of mind knowing that I am doing all the right things to ensure that it is running as efficiently as possible for as long as possible. I would hope that after the boiler gets to be only 6 or 7 years old that my efficiency will not be around 80% or lower by that point in time.

Joe

joe pro

Thanks for the info

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for taking the time to explain this so that I have a better understanding of all of this. It was very helpful.

P.S. Please pass my original posting and your reply on to the Burnham customer service rep, Dave (in Lancaster, Pa), whom I had originally spoke with in the middle of last week. I'm sure that they would find the information useful and informative as well.

Joe

eleft_4

.5%

Hi Joe,

How ya hittin''em,are you breaking 90?

This is the stuff that's important! "Come on" it looks your getting wet before the rain.

Not to wory you ARE in good hands, your guy is right on.

al

joe pro

Thanks for your helpful, detailed feedback. I feel much better now that I know that you have told me that I'm "in good hands". It's nice to know that someone such as myself can be as specific as possible in order to try to obtain correct information and then to get what any reasonable person would perceive to be somewhat sarcastic responses just because someone may decide that it would be best to be judgemental about what another person's concerns are. Real nice. At least all of the other response posted provided straightforward, useful and informative information.

eleft_4

useful and informative information.

Hi Joe,


None of which change the facts. You don't have a problem with your boiler.


Thanks for the kind words.

al

Frank_17

get a hobby

A classic example of a HO with way too much time on his hands

Unknown

You are welcome

and I have already passed it on to Dave.

Glenn

eleft_4

try to obtain correct information

Hi Joe,

Copy and paste this URL in your address bar.

www.FiredragonEnt.com


Buy this book: COMBUSTION & OIL BURNING EQUIPMENT An Advanced Primer

It will be the best $35. investment you can make at this time in your life.

This will help you get into the black and smelly stuff we enjoy

Don't take my word for it

al

joe pro

Get a life

Besides the fact that you have no right to be making judgements/statements about how others spend their time, it is apparently evident by your response that it seems that you are more concerned about putting others down instead of trying to help out. What's the point of you even bothering to you view this website if you plan on giving the type of response that you are giving? Just to get a reaction? I guess that must be your hobby. Amazing how you found the time to make it a point to convey only what your opinion is about how I spend my time, but yet were not even able to have the decency to reply with a helpful answer. And it is your opinion that I should get a hobby?!? Give me a break.

Rich_3

Oil Burner

Dear Joe,

Good for you to question your company about your boiler. I wish I had more customers like you. I am never unwilling to work with a customer to ensure their system is working well. I learn new things every day. A big vote of respect to Burnham for their reply. NEVER allow second rate work.

PS. You can email my whenever you have a question, and I'll do my best to get you the RIGHT answer.

PSS..If you ever have problems with your coil, a great option is a indirect hot water heater. Which is another can of worms..But a damn nice one..Have a great week..

Very Respectfully,

Richard Fox
Hometown Heating and Cooling
Upperstate NY..

John Abbott

Hobby?

An informed HO is the heating proffesional's friend not enemy.Thats how we sell all the great technology out there.As has been said quite well in earlier posts the lab and the field are not the same place . We must make things work reliably and efficently in the field. This often requires doing things differently than the spec.Field conditions dictate the settings ,angles and patterns of nozzles.The mark of a true heating proffesional is the ability to do this under field conditions.I encourage my customers to ask questions telling them that the only stupid question is one that they don't ask.

John

Unknown

Thank you Glenn

For explaining the workings of the triple aquastat . All these years I was working under the assumption that the differential worked with the low and high settings .

Meaning that if your low setting was set at 160 , high at 180 , and the diff at 25 - I thought that if there was no call for heat the boiler would drop to 135 , kick in and run to 160 . The same for a call for heat - the boiler would run to 180 , turn off and kick back on at 155 . Knowlege is power - and money .

Unknown

One thing

about burner efficiency - I believe that a drop of a percent or 2 will not affect the AFUE of the boiler too much . I think it stands for Annual Fuel Utilization Efficiency ? Its the overall efficiency of the boiler and burner . I wonder if anyone can explain how they come up with the AFUE number ? Did you happen to see what type of test kit was used ? I know if I dont change the fluid in my CO2 test regularly , the numbers can be off alot . I also wonder how many times a temp gauge can be used before its numbers dont read right ?

One other thing about the test of the burner - theres a magic number to shoot for - 87% with a standard oil fired boiler is the max . With the CO2 test , the higher the number , the more efficient the burner runs. But anything going higher than 12% CO2 , you run the risk of sooting the boiler . Also , the lower the stack temp , the more efficient the boiler is . But if the temperature of the flue gas is lower than 300 degrees , you run the risk of condensation in the chimney .

We just started using the Burnham boiler with a Riello , and used the nozzle recommended by Burnham ( I believe it might have been a 90 degree ) . The flame was perfect , and the tests were right on the spec numbers . Before this , we used the Peerless boiler with Riello , and the 80 degree nozzle did not work well in them at all . Different boiler though . Take care and dont worry - sounds like the company you have is a good one .

eleft_4

aquastat

Hi joe,

This pdf might help your search.

al

Cosmo

Hey I tried the website but...

It did'nt work...was the spelling correct?
Thanks,
Casmo

eleft_4

www.FiredragonEnt.com

Casmo,

sorry spelling was wrong



al

joe pro

oil burner/boiler technical questions

Hi Rich,

Thanks for your reply and your encouraging words. It's nice to know that there are people out there that are willing to help out and steer someone in the right direction. If I happen to have a need to ask a question, I'll keep in mind what you stated about emailing you a question in the future. Thanks again.

Respectfully,

Joe