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Under floor radiant heat transfer plates

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[Deleted User]
[Deleted User] Posts: 0
in THE MAIN WALL
Now, all we need to do is convince the rest of th RPA that suspended tube or staple up is NOT an efficient use of tube and labor.

BAD ME, Bad....in Heatboys camp.


Bear in mind that HB and ME are located in the land of REAL heating demand, unlike some people on the coasts...

A place and time for every PROPER application. Know your stuff before you apply it.

ME

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Comments

  • moose5
    moose5 Member Posts: 7
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    Under floor radiant heat transfer plates

    Any comments about using Radiant Trak by RTI for heat transfer plates? They are the plates that fasten to the subfloor first and the tubing snaps up underneath.Are they better or worse than the more common type that go up under the tubing?
  • John Felciano
    John Felciano Member Posts: 411
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    Plates

    We use loads of them and they work great!The output is better than the thin "flashing type".They are more expensive and a bit more work to install but well worth it.

    http://groups.msn.com/FelcianoPlumbingHeating/radiantheatfallettiresidence.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=17

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  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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    Check out

    RTI or Radiant Engineering plates. The RE come in 8 foot lengths that may be quicker for you. The come in C or U configuration 1/2 or 3/8" tube sizes. I find the 3/8" much easier for over head, between joist work.

    hot rod

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  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
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    Using extruded plates..........

    is the ultimate way to do joist bay. All that other stuff should be banned. I'm sorry. Bad heatboy, bad!

    http://climatecadvanced.com/installation/retrofit/Joist_Heat/joist_heat.html

    Warm Regards,

    hb

    "Expert in Silent Warmth"™

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  • Troy_3
    Troy_3 Member Posts: 479
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    I'll second that heatboy!

    once you try the extruded plates and see the added performance there is no going back. Knowledge is a dangerous thing. It eliminates excuses.
  • Chris Holley
    Chris Holley Member Posts: 4
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    but you'll want a palm nailer...

    The RTI plates are a little pricey but a great product. If your putting up more than a few hundred square feet you’ll definitely want an air-powered palm nailer for snapping in the tubing. I use a Bostich (cheap ..about $75) with a rubber tipped appliance leg in the nose of the tool. Works slick.

    Chris
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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    ME, I might suggest

    you start that message with the manufactures that promote those methods. Seems their word reaches much deeper into the contractor and DIY ranks.

    There are a number of manufactures that are adamently against the RPA offering training, and certification to contractors.

    There are some legitimate arguments on both sides of this coin, and after hearing out the manufactures I can see their point. To a point. It is not as easy as you'all make it sound on paper. A fine line to walk and keep everyone happy.

    If you would like to be more involved in these battles, I mean discussions........ Better bring some solid engineering data that a system,or method "doesn't work" maybe some legal counsul while you're at it :)


    hot rod

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  • Jody M.
    Jody M. Member Posts: 5
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    Just ripped out a bunch of RTI plates

    I just had to remove a bunch of RTI plates because the tubing was falling out of 'em!!!! This was not a fisrt for me. I replaced them with Ones froom embassy and they seem to be much thicker. Has anyone had a problem before?
  • eric_2
    eric_2 Member Posts: 148
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    Suprised

    to hear a complaint about the RTI plates. All my guys love them because of their thickness and heat transfer qualities. st time I've ever heard of the tubing falling out. I think I have a few phone calls to make now...
  • John Felciano
    John Felciano Member Posts: 411
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    Bad plates

    I've put in loads of RTI plates and only incountered loose one once.I was told that there was a tooling problem that has been corrected.All that was needed with the loose plates was a little squeeze to help hold the tubing in.

    I will agree that the plates from Radiant Enginering are tighter than the RTI ones.There was some interesting data on their site about the difference between the two.

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  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
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    Please elaborate, hr.

    "There are some legitimate arguments on both sides of this coin, and after hearing out the manufactures I can see their point. To a point. It is not as easy as you'all make it sound on paper. A fine line to walk and keep everyone happy."

    Wazzat mean?

    BTW, I wish we could have spent more time together at Wetstock. Next time, OK?

    Warm Regards,

    hb

    "Expert in Silent Warmth"™

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  • mike terry
    mike terry Member Posts: 33
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    homemade plates

    ya know i just could not resist building a jig a pressing out my own platesout of.032 al fits the tubing nice and tight hope they work.
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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    The statements

    "All the other stuff should be banned" and

    "Now all we need to do is convince the rest of the RPA that suspended tube or staple up is NOT an efficient use of tube and labor" seems a little out of place.

    There are plenty of places in the bottom part of this country that could do just fine with 10-15 BTUs per foot at 140 degree supply temperatures in suspended applications. Should the RPA just ignore all but the coldest climates??

    Should the RPA say slab, plates or gyp or "no radiant for you, next!"

    It would be nice if the RPA membership could agree on some output numbers that would guide contractors and radiant shoppers. But to ban certain products and methods... come on.

    The RPA continously polls the members on these hot topics. The majority still has a say. Check out the current online survey at the RPA site and tell me what you would do in that decision. I read an over 50% pro combined systems to 30% against??? Of course I would like to see more of the 900 members weigh in :) The RPA has also sent out mail in polls over the years. Seems the board goes with what the MAJORITY of the members want, from what I have observed.

    My thoughts, for what it's worth.

    hot rod

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  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
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    10 -15 btuh per square.....

    is virtually non-exisitent in my world. Except for an inner room, that is. I see job after job that is screwed and they are, for the most part, plateless, senseless, 170°+ at design joist bay heating. Sure, it works just fine down South with 140°, but it works a whole lot better with plates. I have yet to hear any manufacturer, including the one I work with, say you shouldn't use plateless systems in cold regions. It's always the same tired, worn out phrases like "It works OK." or "I can't sell these plates, they're too expensive." or even better, "We won't sell as many jobs if we don't offer plateless systems because the other guy does." Anybody ever stop to think that maybe not everyone deserves radiant? There's nothing wrong with baseboard or warm air. To sacrifice the project just so someone will buy because "it works OK" is not doing anyone any favors. It should be eliminated and as far as I'm concerned, it is. I repeat, there is nothing wrong with baseboard or warm air.

    Warm Regards,

    hb

    "Expert in Silent Warmth"™

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  • Troy_3
    Troy_3 Member Posts: 479
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    Oh yah!

    Cost me a bundle too! Homeowner still refuses to pay me the last $4300 because he says there is no way of knowing if the buried plates are still doing anything. We installed 2000 2-hole clips after spending 2 days trying to crimp the plates in the exposed basement. after one season they are still dropping out. Home owner wants to know what kind of transfer will plates give that won't even hold tube. It's Thermo-fin for me from now on.
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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    \"In your world\"

    is the key phrase in your response. Lets let it go at that. Fair enough?

    hot rod

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  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
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    Done!

    This is why I couldn't head up a chapter! ;-)

    hb

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  • moose5
    moose5 Member Posts: 7
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    Under Floor Heat transfer Plates

    What is Radiant Engineering'site address JF? Do any of you apply silicon to the groove in the plate as recommended by some?Thanks for all the input on extruded plates guys.
  • bruce pirger
    bruce pirger Member Posts: 111
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    Tube Variations?

    Let me ask a stupid question...does the tubing manufactuer matter? Is the outside diamter a little different? Wirsbo, Vanguard, etc. Is it one size fits all? Or use the plates from the same manufacturer?
  • Chris Holley
    Chris Holley Member Posts: 4
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    Whoops...I meant Radiant Engineering NOT RTI plates

    I've never used the RTI plates. It's the Radiant Engineering Thermo Fin plates that I've been using the palm nailer on. The Thermo Fin tubing fit is VERY tight.

    I heard Troy's horror story about tubing dropping out of the RTI plates and steered clear of them. Some of the guys in my area have been using the RTI plates with silicone sealer in the grooves. I suppose that keeps the tubing in place, but it seems like a pain in the butt.

    Chris
  • John Felciano
    John Felciano Member Posts: 411
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    here

    you go http://www.radiantengineering.com/ send Dale an E-mail and he will explain the diffreence between his track and RTI's

    I've never used silicone on that type of track

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  • Chris Maderia
    Chris Maderia Member Posts: 120
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    RTI Transfer Plates

    I have been using these plates for about 6 years now. I have yet to run into a job where my tubing falls out, so I do not agree with that argument. As far as better system efficiency goes there are a couple of rreasons. The first is that we use a 15 degree delta t vs a 20, secondly there is more surface area of plate making contact with the floor vs the flimsy little alum plates. This give use a much better displacement of heat throughout the floor and remember we also do not have to leave that 2" gap inbetween plates as we do with the cheap alum plates. The best benefit of the plate as far as installation goes is that you don't have to wrestle with the tubing and the plate at the same time and they by far cut down labor compared to the flimsy alum plates.

    Now, to the argument that staple up/joist heating should be outlawed is nonsense. While yes, I will agree that it is less efficient as far as water temps go compared to in slab, climate panel, quik trak, thermal board but we all must remember that we are not selling on efficiency rather on comfort. With this in mind, is it any more or less comfortable for the customer if design and installed correctly? What about cost? Should all those that can't afford the climate panel, quick trak, thermal board not be allowed the CHOICE to have radiant in their homes? Maybe instead of policing installations the RPA should start to police the bad designers, installers and those that give radiant a bad name. Radiant is a very forgiving form of heating a home. It gives those of us who know what we are doing the opportunity to fit radiant heat into everyone's budget and provide them with a much better form along with efficient way to heat their home vs. baseboard, hydro, or forced hot air. So, no matter which application you chose, remember we a providing comfort.
  • Dave H_2
    Dave H_2 Member Posts: 556
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    Very Well

    said, Chris and all. It all comes down to the design, the make-up of the project, and what part of the country you are in. If there is already a warm-air heat source in the entire house and a remodel is going on, why not install a suspended-method?

    Have the radiant heat the project 60-70% of the time and on the cold days, use a two stage stat that kicks on the warm air?

    As for the Radiant-Traks, yes the Radiant Engineering plates fit tubing tremendously tighter than any one elses, that's why you need a palm nailer to get them to fit. Is it that necessary? Also it does depend upon the tubing in some cases. The ASTM regulation of pipe sizes allows quite a bit of variation and you will run into some manufacturers tubing to be on the smaller side.

    It also depends upon the installation of the plates. You want to install the plates so that the tubing goes straight from one plate to the other, 1" offset from end to end does not work. And when placing the tubing into plates that have come from the adjacent joist bay, there needs to be some space from the end of the plate and the transition.

    Tubing does not bend from the center of the joist (where the hole should be) to the end of the plate in just 1" of distance. The tubing should make a gentle transition into the plate.

    I hope this answers the question about "bad" plates.

    Dave H.
    Dave H
  • Riles
    Riles Member Posts: 84
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    Picture of the plate

    installation shows the back hole as the tubing pulled down the joist bay. Therefore crossing over the other line returning to the manifold.

    I have always pulled the near hole down the joist bay.

    Is there a benefit either way? It seemed to me tubing touching anywhere might make some noise during any expansion and contraction. I do like by using the far hole you can get more plates per joist bay.

    What spacing between plates (linear) one to the next?
  • moose5
    moose5 Member Posts: 7
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    Under Floor Radiant Heat Transfer Plates

    Thanks for the pictures D.H.. At the other end of the joist bay ,do you bend the tube within the joist bay or do you drill a hole and go to the next bay? Do you always put one tube though one hole or sometimes two?
  • Mark Eatherton1
    Mark Eatherton1 Member Posts: 2,542
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    HR...

    I said "a time a place for every PROPER application". and what I meant, is if you want to use staple up, or suspended, that is fine, provided it WILL work. Seen too many that didn't work right for one reason or another. Too many people pushing too simplistic systems and "hoping" they will work.

    When we are faced with the reality of environmental crisis management due to over pollution and resource availability, low temperature systems will be the norm, and suspended systems AND baseboard will go the way of the dinosaur, IMHO.

    One of the other posts said that we aren't in the business of selling efficiency, but are only in the business of selling comfort. That may be the case in his camp, but in our company we sell efficient comfort systems. Not to say that we don't install high temp systems (hot water baseboard), but EVERY system we sell has some means of conserving energy attached to it.

    To each his own. As far as trying to keep every one in the RPA happy, it'll never happen. All we can do is the best we can do with the limited resources that we have, all while trying to maintain integritiy within our industry.

    Every person here has thier own impression of whats good or bad for their customers and their selves, and that's fine with me. It's what makes us different.

    If we were all the same selling the same equipment, I'd seek other employment...

    Not wanting to offend any individual or company, just stating my personal opinions and convictions.

    ME

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  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
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    So.....................

    are you coming over to our side? ;-)

    Warm Regards,

    hb

    "Expert in Silent Warmth"™

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  • Dave Holdorf
    Dave Holdorf Member Posts: 12
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    Trak install

    Riles-

    (1) The only advantage of using the back hole is just what you said, more plate in contact with the floor. In this case, the holes where offset slightly as to not let the tubes touch and create any more unnecessary noises.

    (2) Spacing from end to end can vary from 1/4" to 6" apart. Spread the plates apart to minimize cutting the Radiant-Traks. Example, you have a 15 foot span to put plates in. Take off 10-12" off each end for returns and transitions from one bay to the next, that leaves you with about 13 feet.
    That Radiant-Traks are 4 feet long, so you will use three with a 4" gap from end to end. I try to space out so if cutting is needed, cut in half. Small pieces of aluminum in the corner of a basement floor does nothing.

    Moose-

    (1) The other end of the bay is bent withing the same joist. I'll post a picture of that tomorrow.

    (2) you can drill a larger hole to accomodate both pipes, but a two holes neatens up the project and also makes the installation go easier, and quieter. the less chances tubing has to rub on anything, the better.

    Dave H.
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