debate

[Deleted User]

And deeply greateful that I could help.

I didn't say I was leaving here forever, just taking a break and allowing the dust to settle.

After some after thought, I was probably out of line telling TSP to go away. You just have to understand, I am a professional installer first, and a professional educator second, and when someone comes on to me with a "I'm right, you're wrong and you can't tell me otherwise" attitiude as TSP has, it does have a tendencie to raise my hackles.

Weathered, wet, thin skin, I guess.

To TSP, my sincerest, humblest, wet head apologies. Forced air HAS come a long ways from it's roots, but it has a LONG way to go to match the overall comfort of hydronic heating. And yes, we can't do (as already admitted} an efficeint job of IAQ with hydronics alone, but bottom line, the Golden Rule still applies. Those with the Gold make the rules. And I don't see people with lots of money lining up to give heir money to the forced air contractors alone.

As for bad mouthing forced air, I don't even do that in that classes I teach. I don't have to. The advantages of hydronic heating are well documented.

What say we offer the olive branch to each other and learn from each other and learn how to get along, provide the consumer with the ultimate comfort system and go on down the road of life.

Life's too short to mope.

ME




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Timothy S. Plennum

Debating W.A./ Hydronics

I would just like to say that I wasnt trying to come across nasty with my opinions, and personally I dont think I did. For those of you who said that I was getting nasty, arrogant, or whatever other words you want to use, just because I dont agree with your scorched air comments doesnt mean I am the one that is wrong, I gave my opinion just as you have. I believe we all have one thing in common, we are all guests on this web site. For the ones that said I should leave this site and go to area 51, a scorched air web site, I dont think you control this site and until you do and as long as Dan lets me stay here, I will return. Furthermore, I never said that I can't or dont service, or install hydronic heat, you all jumped to that conclusion. In my eyes, Warm Air will always be better and that is my opinion.

mp1969

Debate

Tim,
I have been in the mechanical contracting business for over 32 years and we have installed steam, hydronic and forced air systems in all types of buildings from homes to hospitals.
The only real advantage to hot air is when budgets have to be met! The ideal heating system in my mind is indeed a wet system (hydronic or radiant) The a/c need often pushes homeowners to the combination hot air cooling units due to initial cost.
The ideal compliment to a wet system is a high velocity A/C such as Unico to take care of the air flow (cooling,humidity control and the less needed filtering)
Of course this is a more expensive system and sometimes a hard sell! This is the only reason hot air rules.
If you look at comfort, overall efficiencies ,durability and value there simply is no contest. Stay tuned we don't bite!


MP 1969

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Mark Eatherton1

You are entitled to your opinion...

as I am entitled to mine. I guess I need an attitude adjustment.

I think I'll take my opinion elsewhere for a while...

ME

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ed wallace

debates

tim dont leave you caused a real great debate here this weekend more debates are needed everyone has an opinion we all dont agree with each other as for area 51 you would not get the same kind of people over there so please hang around

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Actually it's nice to hear from

someone who is as passionate about air as many here are about water.

While you may service or install hydronics, I have serious doubt that you've ever lived with a decent one. If you did, you wouldn't have even tried to state that forced air is more comfortable. If you have lived with hydronics and find its comfort lacking, it was probably either an ancient steam system in sore need of maintenance in an apartment or a really bad fin baseboard system.

I just hope your forced air work addresses the genuine issues mentioned here...most I've seen doesn't.

DanHolohan

No need

for that.

Wayco Wayne

Tim

I've enjoyed the debate and appreciate you stirring the pot. I install both hydronic and forced air. I have recently fallen in love woth the 2 stage furnaces that Bryant/Carrier has come out with. The lower capacity stage of heat lowers the blower speed and thus wind chill that is inherent in forced air systems and makes the system run longer giving a much more comfortable & complete heat for the comfort of the customer. When they come up with a totally modulating furnace I'll be in line for a try. (I'm always the sucker that tries things before they are proven ie. Glowcore). I personally prefer hydronics for my own house because I don't have to raise the t/stat temp to account for the very slight wind chill that blowing air around a house gives. Thanks for your input & don't be a stranger.

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Don_2

Mr Eatherton

What I would like to say to you might not mean anything to a man of your caliber,but here it goes.First let me say
as a man who been a plumber son and then watch my older brother follow into my pops footstep as a plumber.The
time I as a kid to make some spending money I had the job of busting out the bad return out of the cement so they could run new pipe,what a job,this turn me off to the wet
stuff,so i went into the force air side of the trade.
Oh yea I have work for the oil company,done my share of boiler work,so on and so on.But not until seven years ago when I got my first hollohan book did I realize what I was missing.
Let me say mark its because of you and a lot of other wetheads here,that this force air man has been converted.
I have went out over the years and purchase all of dans
books,all of what the rpa has to offer,and I visit the wall
all the time.So Mr eatherton again many thanks to you and all the rest of you guys I am a better mechanical contactor.
Mark you my not see what it is you do for many so please
don't give up so easily on us airheads.As a member of the rpa they constantly ask what can we do to get the word out?
Well dan has offer up the conduit and speaker phone.Now
do what it is that you guys do best and show them there more to it then btu's in a box.Many thanks.

Boilerpro

Amen to that Mike....

It's too easy to get caught up in our own little world. The huge advances in forced air heat in the past 10 years or so have definitely narrowed the gap between Forced air and hydronic...Variable speed blowers and modulating gas trains addressing issues of rapid temperature changes and wind chill, firing efficiencies once in the 50th percentcile versus that of boilers in the 70s and mid 80s, and now the issues of the inhereent leaks in ductwork being addressed with new sealing systems. Most comments about the discomfort of forced air were made about the "system I grew up with", not a system with a modern, high end furnace. AS many of you commented, the quailty of the installation is a very big deal. The unfortunate thing I see about forced air is that it is very much driven by price. It generally seems that most contractors are falling other each to get the low bid and this is usually what gets installed. Low bids require cheap ductwork and cheap equipment.... single returns, not separate ceiling and floor vents for heating and cooling, and furnaces that only built to last about 10 to 15 years. Before this environment, ductwork was often a work of art (just look at some of it installed in teh 30's), and the furnaces from the 50's were made of cast iron and plate steel and lasted 40 to 50 years, not the thin 16 guage sheetmetal of today. I'm afraid that the true craftmen of forced air heat doesn't last long in this environment...Quality takes time and money. As someone said, A high quality forced air system costs nearly the same as a high quality hot water system. I also believe this is true. More recent practices of using stud spaces and joist spaces as return ducts (which draw large amounts of outdoor air into the system through leakage), sealing ductwork with duct tape instead of sealants, and uninsualted ductwork are all signs that the standard of quality in most forced air markets is dismal. I hope Tim's passion for hot air drives him to improve the expectations of quality in his corner of New York state.

Boilerpro

DanHolohan

As a writer

I'm really sensitive to words and the power they hold. Maybe I can offer some insight. With the Internet, people rise and fall mainly on their ability to communciate through the written word. We can't see facial expressions or hear someone chuckle. If you begin a post by saying HOT AIR RULES!!!! then most people are going to hear you shouting and it's like some guy just burst into the room with his fists in the air. And when you come in here, a place that's open to all but has its focus mainly on hydronics most of the time, it's like cheering for the Yankees in Boston. Or vice versa. People open your post and think you're looking for a fight. Just human nature.

Your first sentence in your post was, "I, as a warm air comfort installer am tired of hearing you guys trash warm air (scorched air)." Again, fighting words. You decided that this site is strictly hydronic (which it's not) and that you, as a player for the other team, had had enough and weren't going to take it anymore. At least that's the way it reads to this writer's eye.

You followed by talking about radiant garbage and so on.

So people react. That's to be expected, don't you think? I mean, you're the new kid on the block. We don't know you yet. You might not have intended your first post to be nasty or arrogant, but that's the way some took it. And perception is important. How people perceive what you say is as important, if not more important, than what you thought you were saying.

And yet, look at how this community responded to you. The Wall is not like other boards. On other boards you might have found yourself in a shouting match with personal insults flying back forth and very little else being accomplished. Here, you were welcomed and invited to share what you know, while we offered to share what we know with you. If a challenge was issued it was of a technical nature. You were asked to defend your position, as others defended theirs. After all, this is what happens in the marketplace. As Boilerpro says, it's good practice.

So how about if we begin again with a spirit of mutual respect. We're all professionals and I don't want to lose any members of this community. Together we're more than we are alone.

And we all have favorites when it comes to systems, but I think we all realize that there is no one solution to customer comfort, especially nowadays as homes get tighter. Teach us. Make your case calmly. We'll continue to do the same.

Deal?

Bob C.

How about.....

Opinions are based on strong believe and because one holds a certain opinion doesn’t mean it’s correct. I would like to hear a convincing argument on how forced hot air provides better or the best comfort. After all an opinion should be able to be backed up by the evidence that lead you to make such a conclusion.
I would also like to hear how the cost is cheaper or a better value. Cost is a vague word (instalation,operating). Also what do you consider reliable? Or unreliable? You must have some thoughts on why hydronic or steam is unreliable.
I’m not attacking you. I’m just wondering how you formed your opinion and just what you based or base it on. This may help me understand why some people prefer air over water.


Bob Cat

Unknown

Well said Dan

we all can take a lesson from what you wrote.

Sal Santamaura1

Cost

In my business, the customer (all of you, through Uncle Sam) has in recent years claimed to make its buying decisions on the basis of Total Ownership Cost (TOC). TOC is made up of development, acquisition, operating & support and disposal costs. For the heating systems you're involved with, if you can gather needed data, a similar analysis might support one or the other approach. Of course, customers might not expect to own systems for their entire service lives (selling houses before then), and persuasive arguments about comfort could trump cost. But at least one debate factor would be presentable in objective form.

Sal Santamaura1

Cost

In my business, the customer (all of you, through Uncle Sam) has in recent years claimed to make its buying decisions on the basis of Total Ownership Cost (TOC). TOC is composed of development, acquisition, operating & support and disposal costs. For the heating systems you're involved with, if you can gather needed data, a similar analysis might support one or the other approach. Of course, customers might not expect to own systems for their entire service lives (selling houses before then), and persuasive arguments about comfort could trump cost. But at least one debate factor would be presentable in objective form.

Sal Santamaura1

Cost

In my business, the customer (all of you, through Uncle Sam) has in recent years claimed to make its buying decisions on the basis of Total Ownership Cost (TOC). TOC is composed of development, acquisition, operating & support and disposal costs. For the industry you're involved with, if you can gather needed data, a similar analysis might support one or the other approach. Of course, customers might not expect to own heating systems for entire service lives (selling houses before then), and persuasive arguments about comfort could trump cost. But at least one debate factor would be presentable in objective form.

billygoat22

I really like the idea of radiant heat, the low temp differential from floor to ceiling and lower heat losses, etc. It is more expensive to install and few around here have expereince in it. We are one of the few companies in the area which even replace old boilers. I've picked up a number of books to read up on, Lost Art and Water Heater Workbook , came in handy last week on a boiler replacement ,works much better now. The big drawback of radient is the tubing in floors- all these new custom houses change layout each day and the DIY thing -a leak is gonna happen. Same problem with duct too, though you have to pack that big stuff in a tight ceiling or kneewall. Of couse, you get A/C,heat,humdity and filtration in forced air in one duct system. In the South forced air has the advantage because cooling is the larger factor in buying central systems, but I'd love to get radient in one of these new warehouse type buildings going up-instead of unit heaters that heat a high ceiling.

tim from Reed Wright

sa vs hw

you know something guys, I think this is one of the most ridiculous debates i have seen. I do both air and water. I may have a preference myself but not all customers either can afford what I may prefer or want what I prefer. There fore i cannot see a better or worse option for them.We can give a client our preference but what they want is not wrong as long as it's legal and properly installed.