Co Detector

Unknown

I ran into George Kerr of G.E. Kerr Industries at Comfortech 2002. He is offering a CO Detector for Contractors to offer to homeowners. (not sold retail)

I was impressed with the detector. It is more sensitive than UL 2034 Standard calls for.

A quote from their brochure:

"Most of the CO alrms on the market today that meet present UL, ULC, and CSA CO alarm standards are totally useless as HVAC/Indoor quality monitors,... and offer no, ... ZERO ... protection from Low Level CO Poisioning! end of quote.

I tend to agree. This is also the opinion of Jim Davis from National Comfort Institute. Jim shared a story with me of a small child that was killed by CO measuring less than 30 PPM

An interesting discussion on this can be found at:

http://www.bacharach-training.com/homeowners/controversy.htm

George Kerr can be reached at:

19299 Katrina Lane
Eldridge, Missouri 65463-9102

Phone 417-426-5504

FAX 417-426-5594

e-mail gekerr@tds.net

I have been using one for test in my lab since about two weeks ago and I am impressed with its performance. It is a reliable CO detector that contractors could offer to homeowners. Sorry I do not have pricing info, get in touch with George for that. I find that so far this detector out performs those being sold today over the counter.

Jon Harrod_2

Low level CO detection


This is an important issue. I think a lot of low-level CO poisoning is going undetected, even with standard CO detectors which don't go off until concentrations reach 70 or 100 ppm for extended periods. I've been recommending the Kidde Nighthawk CO detector, available from EFI for $48.15 wholesale.

http://www.efi.org/products/power/contcod.html

It has a digital readout that gives current and peak levels. I tell my customers that if either of these numbers ever reads anything other than 0 ppm to give me a call.

On a related issue, I was doing an audit a couple months ago and found an old boiler that was backdrafting and producing over 1000 ppm of CO in the flue. I asked the customers, do you have CO detectors, and they said they did but they had unplugged them a couple years ago because they kept going off! In their defense, the customers had the fire department out to investigate the alarms, but the fire department hadn't found anything (probably because by time they got there the boiler was off cycle and the house had aired out). Meanwhile, the customers had been working in a basement office next to the boiler room and experiencing chronic headaches. We replaced the old boiler with a new sealed combustion Munchkin. The lesson for me was that fire departments and utilities need to be better informed about how to investigate CO alarms, or they need to refer calls to someone who is.

Mark Hunt

Nice web site Jon!

I am involved with the Energy Smart program as well. It is amazing at what you find when you TEST!!

How about an atmospheric gas water heater producing 2082ppm CO?

I checked it 3 times because I thought I did it wrong. Customer is a doctor and didn't hesitate telling mr to get it out of her house.

If you don't test, you don't know!!

Mark H

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Unknown

This detector more sensitive

than Kidde Nighthawk. In my tests so far on detectors I have not found any detector sold over the counter that I would recommend. I had problems with the Kidde Nighthawk being very inaccurate after 2 years. My comparasion to the Bacharach Fyrite Pro tester and also Bascomb Turner showed the Nighthawk off as much as 100 ppm and as it got older it went to 500 PPM difference. The Nighthawk I was testing is hard wired so it was not batteries. Some others were even more inaccurate after time. They also do not alarm low enough to protect children, elderly, pregnant women, people with asthma, bronchitis, emphysema, heart disease and anemia. That in my estimation covers the majority of homes around the world.

EPA says beware at 9 PPM (8 hours twa), All over the counter testers do not alarm until 70 PPM for up to 239 minutes.

ICC/IMC says: vent at 25 PPM (garages). OSHA says exit at 50 PPM (8 hours). In Canada Health Canada says: Beware at 11 PPM (8 Hours). Health Canada says: Exit at 25 PPM (1 hour) Fire departments require oxygen masks if indoor CO levels exceed 35 PPM.

CO - Experts Low Level tester

Co Displayed from 5 PPM (1 PPM recall)

Audible and Visual Warning at 10 PPM

More intense warning at 25 PPM

Already in alarm when others testers give no warning.

rudy_2

Which CO monitor is in my own home?

Last December when George came out with the CO Experts monitor, he sent me one. Out of curiosity I put in a plastic bag with the Nighthawk I had in my home and filled the bag up with 100 ppm CO calibration gas. The CO Experts alram immediately responded. Left them in the bag for several hours, the Nighthawk never responded... Soon afterwards I ordered several of his monitors for my inlaws and my own home.
Another issue to keep in mind is in the event of a home fire. Statistics suggest that approximately 75% of fire related deaths are due to CO poisoning, not burns. What's more is that the present ionozation type smoke alarms do not respond well to smouldering fires (which produce tremendous amounts of CO). What I really like about his monitors (besides being accurate) is that when you press the reset button, it gives you the highest reading, its duration and how many hours ago the reading occured. Critical information in the event of an alarm.
Just amazes me that they are not "UL" approved basically because they offer TRUE protection! Go figure.....

Unknown

UL Approval

I think one of the problems may be the low level alarm. Fire departments do not want to be responding every time the CO alarm goes off. I recently wrote an article on what the contractor should do when CO alarm sounds. I am trying to get the article into trade magazines to help Contractors to know what to do. There needs to be intensive training on causes of CO and what can be done to prevent incidents.

I have found that not only do contractors need training but many gas utilities and fire departments are not fully qualified.

Every contractor should look into adding a CO detector to every new install. It should also be one of the devices that they offer to customers on an annual inspection. On every inspection they should also be testing equipment.

You are right on about fires. I tell people that the CO alarm will go off long before the smoke alarm in most instances.

I noticed the alarm is above the door. I tell installers to put them at "BED TO HEAD LEVEL". Bed when they are lying down head when standing up install some where in between. This is due to specific gravity of CO at .97 as compared to air at 1.0 it tends to accumulate in the middle of an area.

Mark Hunt

Detector placement

This usually comes up during conversations with customers. "Where should I put it?".

As previously mentioned, most people who perish in fires die from CO poisoning. So putting a CO alarm in the same vicinity as a smoke alarm would not be a bad idea.

But what if the CO is not being produced by an accidental fire? Co is lighter than air and would travel upwards in an environment free of convection, but all buildings have some air movement and any CO coming into that area will move with air currents.

In homes that are heated with hot air systems, I like to see the CO alarms placed so that they are in the path of a supply register. I'd really like to see a CO alarm that can be placed in the air stream of supply ducting!!

In homes that are heated with water or steam I like the alarms up high. In any case it is essential to have alarms on EVERY floor and especially near any appliance that can spill CO into the building, although gas stoves and ovens can pump some serious CO into a room when cooking.

We should all know what produces CO and how. We should all be looking for possible scenarios that could cause vented equipment to stop venting. Worst case depressurization testing is critical and don;t think that because a house is "leaky" it won't depressurize. When you run a dryer, bathroom exhaust fans, rangehoods,etc... a lot of air is being removed from the structure that MUST be replaced and it may just cause enough of a negative pressure that the "make up" air will come right down the chimney. I have seen it happen.

Test, test, test, then test some more!!

Mark H



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Jon Harrod

CO


This is great info to have--I will check out the CO Expert detector. I think Timmie's idea is a good one, to make CO detectors a standard item on every install.

Another big source of low-level CO in my experience is gas and propane ovens. I see a lot of these putting out 100-200 parts per million in the exhaust ports even after 10 minutes of operation. I haven't had much luck getting these numbers down and have instead been focusing on getting people to install and use their kitchen fans.

Mark Hunt

Same here.

I have had a few that were blowing over 600ppm after 10 minutes.

Wait til you see what I post tomorrow!!

You think these home inspectors that the bank sends know what they are doing?

Answer that AFTER you see the pics!!!

Mark H

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Unknown

The ANSI Standard for gas ovens is...

.08% (800 ppm). The idea is that the oven cycles off an on by temperature and that it is not on for an 8 hour period. There is no way to get it any lower without a major design change to the way ovens operate. There is not going to be a design change to ovens that is for sure. What needs to happen is an interlock system like used on commercial ovens that requires a venting system running all the time the oven is operating.