Need Help with-Problems after replacing boiler..

IraMica

q

IraMica

Need help with problems-just replaced boiler

Hi,

After saving some money for a few year, we finally decided to replace the ~25 year old, leaking boiler with a new hi-efficiency gas one.

The plumber started the boiler after the initial installation and everything looked fine. All radiators were heating nicely, no banging, etc

About a week later, I noticed that one of the radiators was gurgling when the system was first coming up for a heat cycle.
Closer inspection of all the radiators showed that the 2 radiators farthest from the boiler (opposite end of the house, one of the first floor the other on the 2nd floor) were squirting about 1/4 cup of water.
What happens is when the boiler comes one, I can hear air venting from the radiator for a bit, then I hear gurgling and sometimes banging from inside the radiator. Then water squirts out of the vent. Once the water stops coming out the radiator gets nice and hot though.

Here’s a description of the system.
It’s a single pipe system. One main and all radiators (6 total) have a single pipe going into them.
The new boiler is a Burnham PI5.
I have the finned type radiators not the big cast iron ones. The radiators sit in a cavity in the wall and are covered a ..hmm.. cover, concealing the wall cavity. They almost look like hot water radiators without the cover.
The boiler has a hot water loop too, which heats a heat-exchanger for an addition we have in the back of the house.

I have checked and the radiators seem to be pitched the right way, higher on the side were the vent is.

I called the plumber and he came and flushed the system and replaced the vents on the two radiators that were squirting water.
Next time, same thing.

I called him again, he came and said that the pressure gauge was set too high and lowered it.

Since then, the 2 radiators don’t squirt water as much or as often, but still do.

Here are my theories (to show that I’ve done some reading before bothering people here..)
1 – the new high efficiency boiler was producing more steam in a shorter period of time, causing steam to move faster, therefore pushing the junk in the pipes to the radiators. Now the radiators are clogged and some water gets trapped in them at the end of a cycle.

2 – the system isn’t piped right and pushes wet steam up the main pipe.


Any ideas what the problem might be?

Thanx

IraMica

Need help with problems-just replaced boiler

Hi,

After saving some money for a few year, we finally decided to replace the ~25 year old, leaking boiler with a new hi-efficiency gas one.

The plumber started the boiler after the initial installation and everything looked fine. All radiators were heating nicely, no banging, etc

About a week later, I noticed that one of the radiators was gurgling when the system was first coming up for a heat cycle.
Closer inspection of all the radiators showed that the 2 radiators farthest from the boiler (opposite end of the house, one of the first floor the other on the 2nd floor) were squirting about 1/4 cup of water.
What happens is when the boiler comes one, I can hear air venting from the radiator for a bit, then I hear gurgling and sometimes banging from inside the radiator. Then water squirts out of the vent. Once the water stops coming out the radiator gets nice and hot though.

Here’s a description of the system.
It’s a single pipe system. One main and all radiators (6 total) have a single pipe going into them.
The new boiler is a Burnham PI5.
I have the finned type radiators not the big cast iron ones. The radiators sit in a cavity in the wall and are covered a ..hmm.. cover, concealing the wall cavity. They almost look like hot water radiators without the cover.
The boiler has a hot water loop too, which heats a heat-exchanger for an addition we have in the back of the house.

I have checked and the radiators seem to be pitched the right way, higher on the side were the vent is.

I called the plumber and he came and flushed the system and replaced the vents on the two radiators that were squirting water.
Next time, same thing.

I called him again, he came and said that the pressure gauge was set too high and lowered it.

Since then, the 2 radiators don’t squirt water as much or as often, but still do.

Here are my theories (to show that I’ve done some reading before bothering people here..)

1 – the new high efficiency boiler was producing more steam in a shorter period of time, causing steam to move faster, therefore pushing the junk in the pipes to the radiators. Now the radiators are clogged and some water gets trapped in them at the end of a cycle.

2 – the system isn’t piped right and pushes wet steam up the main pipe.


Any ideas what the problem might be?

Thanx

J.C.A.

Call the plumber back ....

And flush , flush and flush again .Machine oil and pipe dope are finding their way into the system causing the problems you describe . The water may also need to be treated to help bring the Ph to where it belongs . But wait , it gets better ! After the treatment does it's job and cleans all those returns of various nasties , you'll have to have it flushed again .(maybe even more than what I feel is the required 2 times)Clean water = clean steam .Best of luck . Chris.

butch

surging boilers--steam

After making sure the piping is pitched right-- and the returns are below the water line. You should install an ANTI-SURGE TANK made by Ever-Hot all copper it will cure the problem once and for all !! GOOD LUCK

ScottMP

Butch

I have seen these tanks and they do work. But, if the system is piped properly and flushed properly they are not needed.

Check the old systems and see how many of those surge tanks are installed. You'll find none. I think a surge tank is kinda cheating. Maybe I am wrong.

Its tough to tell if this new boiler was piped properly with out seeing it. It could have poorly piped manifold and wet steam is getting into the mains. Could be alot of things, but with out seeing the job its all speculation.

Good Luck

Scott

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[Deleted User]

baseboard radiation

really should be piped two pipe fashion even on one pipe steam. that being said, what was the pressure of the old boiler compared to the new? was the old system operating with a vaporstat instead of a pressuretrol? maybe the installer should add a vaporstat. you dont have to abandon the pressuretrol, just use it as a high limit.

Mad Dog

Exactly chowdahead..a properly piped steam header will

negate the need for "band-aids" like that. Just off the top of my head, unless those steam convectors are really large that in-5 could be a bit oversized....only feeds 6 rads.........why don't you email us a pic. Mad Dog

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[Deleted User]

yes, good idea, could you post a picture

of the radiator thats squirting and the boiler with its piping also visible? maybe we can help you better than.

Unknown

I bet its a combo

of things , like Scott and Matt stated . The finned steam convectors dont need nearly the same amout of BTUs to heat as a true radiator needs . Whats the output of that size boiler ?

And I'll bet the near boiler piping aint right . We went to a problem job where alot of the vents were continuously spitting water . The boiler header was 2 inch . We changed it to 3 inch like the specs said , and the problem went away .

IraMica

Here are some pictures

URL:

http://www.geocities.com/iramica/boiler/boilerpics.htm

Thank you all very much

Unknown

Looks like they did

a very nice job on the near boiler piping . One thing I noticed on the last pic - does that one header have another return at the other end , or is that the only return in that 2 inch tee heading down ? If it is , I believe it might not be piped the best way to do it .

keith

wash down

Does the sight glass have condensation in it? That would be an indicator that you still have a film of oil inside the boiler. It would be a step in the right direction to wash down and skim out the the junk from the boiler. On larger boilers we use chemicals to wash off the oil film inside the boiler sections. Then skim the boiler at the water line. That should do it. Does the gas burner short cycle?

[Deleted User]

what kind of radiator vent is that

we can hopefully find its venting cfm and maybe recommend a slower vent. this may help. we need the make /model/ etc of the vent tho.

IraMica

Looks like they did

I hope I understood your q. correctly

If you look at the picture in the middle (the one showing the whole boiler) you'll see a "1" labeled on the top/right of the water heater. That is the same pipe that goes down from the T, in the last picture. As you can see, that return goes down to the floor and up in to the boiler.

In the middle picture, you'll see pipe #2, which connects the header to the main.

The header also connects to pipe #3 which is another return .

Does pipe #3 qualify as a 2nd return.

Also.. in the picture posted by Mad Dog, I see that there are to pipes (I think they are called risers) connecting the boiler to the header. My boiler is not piped like that. I can see a tab on the top of the boiler that can be punched out though.

Also2, in the picture posted by Mad Dog, the pipes are painted black. Should I paint mine too?

-THANX!

IraMica

Looks like they did

I hope I understood your q. correctly

If you look at the picture in the middle (the one showing the whole boiler) you'll see a "1" labeled on the top/right of the water heater. That is the same pipe that goes down from the T, in the last picture. As you can see, that return goes down to the floor and up in to the boiler.

In the middle picture, you'll see pipe #2, which connects the header to the main.

The header also connects to pipe #3 which is another return .

Does pipe #3 qualify as a 2nd return.

Also.. in the picture posted by Mad Dog, I see that there are to pipes (I think they are called risers) connecting the boiler to the header. My boiler is not piped like that. I can see a tab on the top of the boiler that can be punched out though. Which probably means the manufacturer thought somebody might want to connect a second pipe there.

Also2, in the picture posted by Mad Dog, the pipes are painted black. Should I paint mine too?

-THANX!

IraMica

I think

it's called a VariStat.
It has a little tab that you can adjust the flow with.
Currently, the tab is open all the way.

Thanx

[Deleted User]

try moving it to a slower vent rate

this would slow things down in the troublesome radiator. it may help the squirting by decreasing the velocity. IMHO if the manufacturer leaves two places for discharge to the header than both should be used. that alone would decrease velocity of the steam...i am under the assumption that all worked well with the previous boiler. hopes thats a correct assumption.

IraMica

correction

the valve is called
Heat-timer varivalve by:
Heating and Air-Conditioning Controls and Systems
20 New Dutch Lane
Fairfield, NJ

20$ a piece...

Your assumption is correct.
The system worked well before boiler replacement.

I wish I took some pictures of the old boiler but I think it also had one riser.

IraMica

shortcycle

I'm not sure what shortcycling is exactly but the cycles are a lot shorter compaired to the old boiler.

The boiler comes on, reaches ~3 PSI shuts off, goes to ~1 psi in about a mintues, comes on, goes to ~3 PSI in about 1 mintues and repeats till the thermostat shuts off.

Yes, The glass above the water line has condensation on it.

Thanx

[Deleted User]

do you have a main vent

on the end of the steam main, in the basement? does it work?doesn't sound like it does. follow your pipes till they end horizontally and look for a main vent.

Steamhead

Gerry's right- Are there vents at the ends of the steam mains?

These are crucial to proper steam distribution- and they allow the use of smaller vents on the radiators (or convectors, in your case) since if the mains are properly vented, the radiator vents don't have to handle air from the mains. This seems to be a more urgent issue with newer boilers since they produce steam faster, but older units will benefit from proper venting too.

Measure the length and diameter of your mains. With that info we can determine how much air must be vented from them.

Also, those Heat-Timer vents don't have floats in them, so they will not close against water like most other vents will. Once the proper main vents are in, you can probably use Hoffman #41 convector vents on your units. There isn't much air in those convectors so the slower rate of the #41s won't be a problem- and they close against water too!

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