Different Strokes

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

This is a union for a hand-held shower head on a hose; made by HansGrohe. It's where the hose connects to the plumbing coming out of the wall. As you can see, the connection to the rough plumbing is male threads; this means that your rough plumbing has to be right on; no room for error on your part or the tile setters part; the female adaptor has to be exact: 1/4" behind face of finished tile.

Here in America, our unions are a female connection which makes installation a lot easier in that we use a brass nipple to make up the difference between the rough plumbing and the union.

If you've ever installed a Dornbracht angle stop, it's the same thing: male threads.

To me, an American plumber, it makes no sense the way the Eurpeans do this, but I'm sure there's a reason. Can someone enlighten me?

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Gary Fereday

Design engineers

There are lots of related items just like you mentioned. Many folks get education and then just remember that, with no concept of what they are asking for, when it comes to being practical. W.C. Feilds was noted to want folks working for him that would get the job done, not design it till it would not work. You can bet the European have as much trouble connecting as we do. On the far side of this comment, Social Services & child protection is another place where similar doings happen. Young proffessionals, get out of school and then purport to know all about rasing a family. They do not have children of their own; however are expert on what kids need, want, and understand. This whole world is slowly going nuts! soon we the unlearned, will be able to do the impossible, without nothing at all. IMHO bigugh (Law of conservation of resorces)

ScottMP

Strange Alan

We have done alot of Grohe and Hansgrohe and the Grohe union had a langer shank that allowed the cover to adjust about 1/2". Considering all the variables in this business it would be nice if they gave us a little margin for error.

Here's two of my peeves,

The new Kozy Kollar roof flange that allows you to install a vent from inside the house. It ONLY comes in 3", if your doing a rehab and theres no roofer, dont you have a 2" VENT. Would'nt a 2" vent be less obtusive than a 3" ????

The new PVC toilet flange with a Stainless Steel ring. Great Idea !! They dont make it as a STREET flange ??? So what we only use a great product PART of the time ????

Would'nt a company want to ask the people who USE their product what they would like ????

Scott AAAGGGHHH Milne

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Earthfire

hopefully

that toilet flange will make it in the market and they will expand the flange to the rest of the product line and replace the stl painted versions

kevin

Don't you

have to be 3" going through the roof? due to freeze conditions and frosting over?

Paul Pollets

Euro reasons

The reason for the design takes into account the precision of the installer. It's presumed that the technicians can work within the tolerances of the product. What it doesn't take into account is that most N. American contractors (or subs) have to work with other subs and critical details are missed, overlooked or ignored. Euro contractors, particularly German contractors, are all Guild members and have been through a 6 year apprenticeship. There are very few mistakes or errors on the job. They also build as a team and are very detail-oriented. How many GC's would tell you the finished tile dimension? How many plans show this? The Euro equipment is harder to install for many reasons, and can often require more skills than installing a typical American fixture (or boiler)

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ScottMP

Kevin

In Massachusettes we only need one full size vent ( from the foundation thru the roof ), all other vents can be 2". Since most remodling jobs allready have a full size vent thru the roof, we only add a 2" for a new or remodled 2nd bath.

Scott

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ScottMP

Make sense Paul

Somtimes we don't even know or meet the tile man, who decided to "fatten" out the tile wall. We just come back two weeks later and find out that "aaaggghhhh" ...

" Uh, do you make an extension kit ..."

Scott

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Paul Pollets

I am making sense

The lack of communication is more than apparent on most construction sites. Plumbers and hydronic techs have a very technical piece of the pie to install. They are usually given very few details to execute easily. You wouldn't need that "extension piece" if this wasn't true. I can't begin to tell you how many 12,000SF homes are built without a mechanical plan in greater Seattle. Go figure.

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Paul Pollets

And by the way...

If someone decides to "fatten the wall" on a div. 15 project, that information is to be provided in a timely manner to ALL subs working the job. If not, you'd have every right to charge extra for the additional work required to install the "extension piece"

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hr

A Grohe trick

We used to install a lot of those Grohe "ells". I agree with Scott it is real hard to know how thick the tilesetter will pack out the wall.

What I did was take that ell and carefully drill it out to 5/8". Then I would sweat a 6" copper stub into it. Next drill out a bunch of 1/2" copper to male adapters. This allows you to slide the adapter along the tube to the exact location to match the tile an thickness variable. Sweat the adaptor to the copper tube. You get a perfect fit for that plastic angle trim every time.

I would make a bunch at a time, and give them to Westland Bath in Salt Lake our Grohe dealer of choice. Send me one and I will Amercianize it for you!! I had a bunch of custom stem extenders I made up for the same reason for the rough in on tile decks.

Ahh to be as perfect as the "Europeans"

hot rod

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Paul Pollets_2

Good trick!!

Now that's American ingenuity!

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Phil_6

I just..

make the elbow in the wall deep enough to be able to use a nipple and coupling and then I don't care if they put brick on the wall.

kevin

ok

I'm from north of the border in NH. all penatrations here have to be in 3". Isn't the Kozy made in Pelham, NH? Might explain it.I once needed a 4" version of it and they do make one. But they seemed a bit bothered that I asked. That also might explain their stuborness to satisfy the customer. Go figure... it might come back to bite them... it happened to the auto industry .....kpc

KevMcG

Euro contractors

> The reason for the design takes into account the

> precision of the installer. It's presumed that

> the technicians can work within the tolerances of

> the product. What it doesn't take into account is

> that most N. American contractors (or subs) have

> to work with other subs and critical details are

> missed, overlooked or ignored. Euro contractors,

> particularly German contractors, are all Guild

> members and have been through a 6 year

> apprenticeship. There are very few mistakes or

> errors on the job. They also build as a team and

> are very detail-oriented. How many GC's would

> tell you the finished tile dimension? How many

> plans show this? The Euro equipment is harder to

> install for many reasons, and can often require

> more skills than installing a typical American

> fixture (or boiler)

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 104&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,

> Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A

> Contractor"_/A_



I get tired of hearing how the Europeans are so much more advanced than us. My 2nd cousine is married to a German and in a recent letter to my mother passed a remark about her husband (insurance adjuster) being very busy with an abundance of shoddy construction.
Yeah They have some fairly advanced equipment but like here what do you think is the % of homes that get it (pretty low). And " Flat panel radiation" I get a kick out of how great some think that is. I have been going to Europe for Many many years and always looked at as cheap steel ugly white radiator. The Vast Majorities of homes are one zone. and in the British Isles They use an on off switch for a thermostat. And how many of you have crapped in a toilet in Europe that could actually flush well. Don't ever throw something with buoyancy in those toilets (ie the stub of a cigar) You will just end up having to retrieve it later.
I will admit I have never been t'ere as a guest of a Manufacture (ie Buderus). But I have been to many of the common man's home.

KevMcG

Euro contractors

I get tired of hearing how the Europeans are so much more advanced than us. My 2nd cousine is married to a German and in a recent letter to my mother passed a remark about her husband (insurance adjuster) being very busy with an abundance of shoddy construction.
Yeah They have some fairly advanced equipment but like here what do you think is the % of homes that get it (pretty low). And " Flat panel radiation" I get a kick out of how great some think that is. I have been going to Europe for Many many years and always looked at as cheap steel ugly white radiator. The Vast Majorities of homes are one zone. and in the British Isles They use an on off switch for a thermostat. And how many of you have crapped in a toilet in Europe that could actually flush well. Don't ever throw something with buoyancy in those toilets (ie the stub of a cigar) You will just end up having to retrieve it later.
I will admit I have never been t'ere as a guest of a Manufacture (ie Buderus). But I have been to many of the common man's home.

Mark Eatherton1

Engineered Soldering...

I think thats what I heard Siggy call it once. Or something like that. I used to do it that way. Now I'm involved with one of the biggest and best GC's in Colorado, and I'm learning what "attention to detail" REALLY means. Weekly subcontractor coordination meetings. Monmdays at 9:00 AM, and you MUST have a represenative of your company there, even if it doesn't involve you. Because, eventually, it will...

I actually turn a fair profit fixing "Engineared on the fly" systems. It takes so little time to sit down and figure it out on paper, then do it that way. It ends up costing the consumer more than it would have cost me to do it right the first time, but how do you explain that to someone who's never heard of you. "We looked in the yellow pages for a radiant floor contractor, and interviewed the two that were advertising as such, but couldn't find one within our budget. Where were YOU?"

I then explain to them that budgets don't take ignorance or mother nature into consideration, and their buget would have been wrong in the first place. Where do these people get these "budgetary" numbers from any way? Not from me, that for sure!

ME


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Paul Pollets

Hydronic heating

is in over 90% of all Euro homes. Sorta like 90% of all US homes used forced air. Sorry you get tired of hearing how advanced the Euros are in regards to HW heating, but it's true largely due to the high cost of fuel and strict government emission laws. I'd urge you to make it across the pond to ISH in Frankfurt in late March of '03 or attend my seminar in Euro boiler technnologies at ISH-NA in Toronto next month. You'd be surprised how they do it, and how well they do it.

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