Star of stage & screen (PAH)

Dave Yates (PAH)

I would have heartily agreed. However, we've been installing only pressure and temperature balancing tub/shower and shower only valves for more than a few years. I fully expected we would have nothing but trouble (based upon past experiernces), however I have been very pleased at how flawlessly they continue to perform. The cost differences that used to be quite pronounced have narrowed to the point where they are almost nill.

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Dave Yates (PAH)

It's an ASSE 1017

valve! Thermostatic control of outlet temperatures from potable hot water sources. Flatline + or - 3 degrees F.

Add an ASSE 1016 temperature and pressure balance valve at the point of use & we can eliminate more than 100,000 scalding cases that occur with infants, elderly and handicapped people every year.

Add constant circ with temps above 131 F & Legionella takes a holiday!

Coming soon to a theater near you...................

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Sounds good

From my experience the challange is keeping the thermostatic valves WORKING. They are very sensitive to hard water and mineral build up. Pretty much a given that they need to be on a softened water sourse. Every Bradford White Combi Cor was shipped with these valves. I've had plenty of call back experience with these!

You will notice in the latest PM Honeywell/ Sparco are promoting a NEW updated version of their popular mixer ASSE 1016 and 1017 compliant. Whenever I see a full page ad promoting a "new and improved version" lights and warnings go off in my head. In this case I have first hand experience with the problem.

Personally I would lean towards the larger versions like Holbys. They seem to be able to handle the sediment issue better, but they all require maintence based on the water quality and volumn they see.

Time will tell if the miracle teflon coating fix the constant, and ongoing problem that small chamber point of use thermostatic have struggled with. I'll have to see it to believe it

Luckly they fail cold when they stick, so a cold shower is better than no shower.

Best do some homework before we substitue one problem for another.

Is legionella growth in water softners a concern? Or are the water temperatures not right for growth in cold water side appliances? Thanks for the update.

hot rod


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Tips for thermostatic mixers

I would highly recommend installing mixers with good isolation valves on all 3 ports. This makes rebuilds a clean, dry, easy experience. Manufactures should consider adding intergral shut off (like Taco iso flanges) to ease rebuilds.

Watch the CV numbers (pressure drop) on those valves also. Generally a typical residential application would need a 1"

Watts Radiant (formerly Heatway) has been a big proponent of thermostatic mixers for small radiant applications. Here is a picture of various brands they have tried, tweaked, and abandoned over the years. Keep in mind these were in closed system applications.

Open loop systems with constantly added "fresh" water are more of a challange. Certain "weird" water conditions, ph problems generally, will go after the brass bodies. Dezincafication (sp)is one of the problems you may experience with plumbing (yellow brass) in valve applicatioins. Hence the teflon, nickel, or chrome coatings inside the valve bodies. Elevated temperatures, above 140, will accelerate this problem.


This is why circulators used for dhw are stainless or bronze bodied, not brass.


Seems like stainless, or high tech plastic bodies would be a better choice for thermostatic mix valves bodies! But I'm just a plumber so...:) Brass is cheap and easily machined.


hot rod

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Point of use

tempering is different than tank mounted valves. And, yes I agree the T/S mixers have come a long way and are fairly trouble free. I have been very happy with my Delta Monitors. Yearly cleaning is requires even with softened water I find. Early Moentrols were not as sucessful, in my opinion, and not all T/S mixers are true "scald guards" either.

When you use a mixing valve at the tank, however, this valve will "see" all the hot water used in the home passed thru it. Of course based on the size of the family and the amount of hw used, will determine the life cycle of the mixer.

From my experience the biggest variable, regardless of the brand or location of the mixer, is the water quality. If you have hard water, high lime or iron, sediment, etc. the valves will need more frequent maintenance.

I like to see the T/S valves used with the built in iso valves also for ease of cleaning or rebuild. Generally in commercial applications (motels etc.) the intergral shut off models are used.


Will the dishwashers and wash machines see 160 degree temperatures? or will these require point of use mixers also. If you recirc 160 degree water it seems like you would want/ need a point of use mixer at every hw connection? I would think 1" insulation would be needed on the entire circ systems also at 160 degree DHW temperatures. Sounds like the DHW will be quite a bit hotter than the temperatures needed to radiantly heat a home.

Hey maybe we could use the same water to do both, only this time we temper down the heating side Just kidding, you've won me over on that argument.


hot rod

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Dave Yates (PAH)

Progress!

135 to 140, not 160. The codes already address insulation. Sell more water treatment equipment(G). Temps in softeners can support Legionella, but typically they are at the lower temperature scale end of favorable bug reproduction. (55 to 131 degrees F).

Residential dishwashers will love 140. Commercial often include a booster to push much higher temps for sterilization along with chemicals in the rinse cycle.

Your last line made my day!(GGGGG)

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steve gates

TEFLON

seems to be lasting longer. We have some very hard water sources here(great place for a test). I've seen a couple stick open on hot. Scary.