Vitronic 200 Questions

bruce pirger

I have read the Viessmanns Techinal Data Manual on the Vitronic 200 controller, yet it leaves me wanting to know more. I wish there was more explicit information regarding the controller's interface options, although this material is probably covered more in a "Installation Manual" or similar.

A few questions:

1. Is it possible to connect an actual floor temperature sensor and use that for feedback control? In my house, I will burn the wood stove almost always...and I suspect it will provide nearly all the heat I will typically need. But, I'd like to make sure the slab temperature is maintained to something "warm"...with no experience in radiant floors under my feet, I'm guessing something like 80 degrees as a minimum. (Can't wait to get this up and running...) If a room sensor itself did not call for heat, due to the wood stove heating the air, I could imagine having the slab floor cool... I am the type that starts the fire in November and it goes out in about March....Upstate NY area.

2. I assume this controller will open/close zone valves (or drive relays that do such) as well as control circulators on/off (or control relays...). Is this the case? How do they connect to the proprietary "plug and pray" connector system? I understand the Tekmar relays/controllers and such, and assume this is similar...but it is not obvious for the Technical Data Manual.

3. I plan to install the boiler outside of the house in an insulated shed housing the boiler and the oil tank. Shed is approximately 20' from the building. I don't have a basement....(long story, this is supposed to be a workshop serving as a temporary house until I can build the full scribe log home...yeah right...4 bedrooms, skylights, 2.5 baths, beautiful kitchen, balcony in the "temporary workshop")....and due to the noise of the oil boiler, would prefer it outside. Also, I like the idea of having some heat with the oil tank. Hot water from the boiler will be brought inside the home via burried and well insulated PEX. I intend for the indirect DHW tank to be inside, the manifolds obviously are inside, and therefore the mixing station would also be inside. The mixing station controller with propretary "plug and pray" connector I see is 5m long...not long enough for me. Is it possible to extend the length of this? Same question for the indirect DHW tank aquastat?

4. It appears that the Divicon Mixing Station is intended to be mounted more or less directly next to the boiler. Can I install this inside the home without problem and extend it's controller back to the boiler?

5. I keep wondering if I am better off just using the Vitola with the two indirect mixing tanks I first suggested last week. I will attach my "drawing" again. The concerns with the simple system in the drawing was the return temperature to the boiler...and with the Vitola, this is NOT a concern. So, mixing is done in the radiant indirect, DHW is in its own tank. I am not concerned about supplying two different temperatures to the two radiant systems. The slab system is largely covered with that thick carpet I should NOT use with radiant heat...so I suspect it will even out with the staple up (with plates) which has a thinner carpet.

Oh what a blast this is...I just need to decide.

Thanks for all your help guys! I certainly now know what a Tiger Loop is! And it seems to boil down to mixing valves or mixing tanks. Mixing valves seem to beg for short cycles, even with a small 72K effective output boiler like the VB2-18. I think this is my "tendency" towards the mixing tank and away from the mixing valve. But with 3 daughters, I imagine the DHW tank will recharge a minimum of 8 times a day...so that's quite a bit of extended firing over the next decade at least!

Also, keep in mind, like most of you, and unlike many of your clients with these amazing systems and sprawling square footage and "trophy homes"...I live on a budget. LOL

Thanks again! Sorry for the ridiculously long posts....so many questions...learning so much! And having a blast.

John Felciano

Vitronic

The vitronic control is a very impressive device.It's capable of doing pretty much any function you could want.For radiant floor heating it is designed to operate at constant circulation with outdoor reset.There is no need for a indoor room sensor.Temperature in the room is controlled by the heating curve and slope.Unless a seperate room senser (not required) is installed the control has no idea what the actual room temperature is.Everything is calculated off the outdoor air temperature.This could make the use of a woodstove a bit problematic.

For floor warming you can add a seperate floor sensor and tie it in directly to the circulator running those rooms.Or you can play around with the control to just deliver a cooler water temperature just to keep the floors warm.I would be a little concerned about overheating,but with a woodstove your probably used to that.

Have you considered using a wood boiler in conjuction with the Viessmann?

The Viessmann boiler is very quiet and I wouldn't be too concerned about noise.With their high mass and thick insulation you can hardly hear them run.

So many questions so little time...more later....

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bruce pirger

Thanks John, now it makes complete sense. So as you say, I could select one of the different curves within the control to set my water temperature accordingly. And as you say, the woodstove might just blow us out...although a lower curve could be selected...have to look and see if it can be low enough.

I have only heard oil fired water heaters run before....and they sound extremely loud. I have a utilitity room inside the house that I intended to install a direct venting boiler in, small, compact, pulls outside combustion air...but then started to think seriously about the irritation of the noise. House is way out in the middle of the woods...1000' off the road...most dominate man made sounds are airplanes...or maybe a tractor a half mile away...so would be nice to maintain the solitude.

Yes, an outdoor wood boiler has always been in a long term plan. I have been thinking over the past 24 hours maybe I should just buy one of those now, but I like the idea of oil backup and also oil hot water during the summer. I lean towards the Central Boiler wood boiler....and I see they have a port for an oil burner now. I can't imagine a worse environment to place an oil burner in...talk about DIRTY!...apparently it fires directly into the firebox. WOW...how efficient!

I was quoted about $4600 for the central boiler (smallest model...some 250K BTU max...I need about 80K now...but when the barn comes...hot tub...LOL) (add about $300 to make it oil burner ready....) Anyways, I was quoted $6400 for the Vitola VB2-18 with Riello burner, Divicon mixing station, Vitronic 200 control, Tiger Loop system, and a CVA 42 gallon indirect tank. I figure there's another $2K in pumps, pipe, valves, chimney, insulation, etc for the Viessmann (not to mention about $1K for building materials for the shed).

The wood boiler system requires heat exchanger, mixing tank, indirect tank, pumps, valves, control, etc....about $3K or so. MegaStor 53gallon indirect tank is $900...that's much of that. Heat exchanger, etc.

Then there's the "simplier" oil based system....Crown Boiler at $1.8K, two indirects, pumps ($1.8K), valves, some kind of controller, maybe a tekmar or similar....I figure about $6K-$6.5K.

SO, I think the Viessmann system is certainly the most elegant, the most efficienct (for oil anyways) and without a doubt, the premium in control. But with the woodstove...I AM worried if there is no indoor reset...

I've been thinking I'd make the analogy to backyard astronomy. I'm a "professional" astronomer...I build instruments for telescopes around the world. Can't build an instrument today for $1M (M means million here!) and most are nearly $4-$10M. And telescopes are 30 times that these days.... But you can buy a nice set up for the backyard, or better yet, build your own, for a whole lot yes. Sure, not quite as good (OK, not even close!)...but it would just stir your soul with imagination and exploration...Ah...enough.

So, I am a little puzzled. Open to all comments/suggestions...need to decide this soon though!

To some extent, the radiant is almost a backup heating system...although I do want to keep the floors warm...and I can imagine letting the stove go out from laziness (I mean being too busy! LOL)

John Felciano

Woodstoves

If I wanted to burn wood for a heat source I would put a wood boiler in a shed some distance from my house and pipe the heated water from there to a boiler in my home.I would do it in a open system with some type of heat exchanger.

The benefits to this type of system are many.It puts the messy dangerous wood burning operation outside.No dragging firewood into the house.

The home could be heated radiantly with the outdoor wood boiler feeding the inside oil boiler.The domestic water would also be heated by the same way.

The nice part of this is if the fire goes out or you just don't feel like burning wood you have a nice high efficient boiler to heat the house.The best of both worlds.

As far as cost goes it would be higher buying two seperate units,but that would be saved in fuel cost.

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bruce pirger

John I agree. But it sounds like perhaps you haven't sat in front of a beautiful burning Lopi stove with the snow falling on the spruces trees around your house....etc. I'd love the wood boiler outside, efficient or not (there are many stories about them, but I no of none firsthand to really judge). But there's also the beauty of watching the fire through the glass door, of feeling the heat blow you away after you've cross country skied a dozen miles and your body (at least mine) is craving that warmth. The indoor stove is more a personal choice...I agree with you totally.

I was thinking about placing some kind of a tank under/around the stove stone surround actually add warmth to my radiant water this way...but never got around to thinking enough about it. Yes, the gain would be minimal. Also, in a very open house like mine, it is pretty easy to distribute the heat nicely.

Yep, an outdoor boiler piped through a heat exchanger to the closed loop with the oil boiler....the boiler would never fire, the mixing valves would be controlled by the controller...and it would be ideal. That is the plan....someday in the future.