Poor quality pipe and fittings...made in USA...Boilerpro

Boilerpro

Been noticing lots of poor quality pipe and fittings. Since I'm still a one man shop, I hand thread most of my smaller stuff and seem to find most pipe is full of hard or brittle spots..maybe I just need some pointers on pipe threading. Even the factory threads are often crooked.The latest is pipe marked WTC, but I have also tried Sawhill and others. Only good stuff I've found is Sharon Tube...I understand this is seamless pipe so there is no brittle weld. This stuff threads like butter. Way too often I find piping running at odd angles once it is threaded into a fitting. Even fittings made by Ward, supposedly the industry standard. My supplier, who generally tells it like it is, says the imported SA brand now has a lower defect rate than Ward, and is beginning to stock thier fittings side by side with Ward. I get a strong sense we are back in the 70's U.S. again where production volume (under the guise of improving productivity)has eclipsed quality once again. It seems not much made these days is made well. Just wondering if the rest of you have found this same trend and may have some brands where this has not been the case.

Boilerpro

Mad Dog

We usually get

Wheatland steel pipe USA - no problems. Sure your dies aren't cocked?...we had that problem once...also, cutting oil past her prime... Haven't had the problem with Ward.....I heard Some of those Korean copper fittings were coming in odd sizes weren't goin' on pipe. U.S. stuff isn't perfect, but I hope it's just an isolated incident...good luck. Mad Dog

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Mark J Strawcutter

while we're on the subject

well, sort of...

what is the difference between malleable iron fittings
and cast iron fittings?

is one more suitable for natural gas piping?

is one more suitable for hydronic heating piping?

John@Reliable

fittings

malleable should be used on gas

Tony Conner

Check Out...

... www.eci-ndt.com/pipe_trends.htm .

I've experienced what you have. A chunk of 3/4" just wouldn't thread properly. We changed dies. We changed the oil. We changed brands of oil. Different guys in the shop had a go. Torn threads after torn threads. It was the PIPE.

If you simply order "black pipe", you'll almost always get sent "A53F". This is the lowest, crappiest grade of carbon steel pipe with an ASME designation. It's also known as "continuous" or "furnace" weld pipe. This is kind of a misnomer. Flat pieces of steel are heated up, and run through rollers. The hot edges are squeezed together, and this makes the pipe. It's more than just stuck together, but not much. Look at the seam inside a lot of lengths. Ugly, ugly, ugly. Really poor quality control at the mills. I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect that pipe of this grade is full of re-melted scrap, and it's often not mixed very well.

If you order A53B ERW, you'll get a better grade of pipe. It has a seam, but it's electric resistance welded.

If you want the good stuff, order A106B. It's seamless. This is the grade used in big power plants, refineries, petro-chem, etc. These folks spec a grade of material precisely, and have the means and staffing to test what's coming in the gate. Ship these guys crap, and you stand a good chance of being caught. It threads better, and it even LOOKS better just sitting on the rack.

There are lots of malleable fittings that show up with crooked threads tapped into them. It's the same as the pipe. The big players don't use them. They use A105 forged steel screwed fittings. Order a 3000# forged steel 90* el, and you'll see. Very nice. Also big-time overkill for things like heating work, and about 10 times what the malleable jobbie cost. I can't comment on cast iron screwed fittings, because I won't use them. The only "advantage" I can see to CI is that you can hit it with a hammer to remove it. You can also have it hit with water hammer, and have it removed by surprise. I've seen that happen in a low pressure steam condensate line, and didn't like it.

It's too bad they've stopped making wrought iron anything. I picked up an old book on ebay on it. What a material! For a lot of applications, this metal was just bullet proof. However, for pipe, it was 20 or 30% more expensive than steel, and a lot of mills were discontinuing wrought iron pipe as early as 1916. They couldn't sell it - "too expensive".

Boilerpro

Thanks for the pointers!

I am not off my rocker! It just seems to have gotten especially worse the past couple years. As I said, The Sharon Tube pipe I've been using is supposedly seamless and it threads like butter....alot like some of the older pipe I've threaded.


Boilerpro

Tony Conner

If...

...it's really seamless, it'll say "A106B" on it.

Just to keep things confusing, there's an "A53B" seamless as well as an A53B ERW designation in the ASME piping codes. The two seamless designations have exactly the same ratings. Why the ASME did this, I have no idea. Why they designated two different grades of pipe "A53B", I have no idea. Very confusing. However, A53B seamless isn't a normally produced or stocked grade anymore. You can still get it if you really want it, you just have wait months for a mill to run it just for you, and pay through the nose for something that's literally the same as what's sitting at a wholesalers. Order the A53B grade, and you'll get ERW.

Floyd_2

Had that problem also....

2" pipe, but the threads I cut were okay.... it was the threads that came on the pipe that were bad!!!!!
Pipe came from Canada.. had too much taper on the threads...
cost a bundle for all those extra unions and know one would take responsibility.... lost my rear on that job!!!!

Canuck

Interesting read fellas

It's neat to read different perspectives and compare them to what we have going on up here (not that we don't have bad pipe or fittings on occasion). For instance though, we have to weld all gas pipe larger than 2" NPT (re-David Broome's post), so it's interesting to see that 3" can be threaded in certain areas.

Thanks guys

ScottMP

Yes Thank -You

I just got a nice little lesson on piping standards. Never knew this stuff before.

Sorry to say we also have had this problem. Same as you guys, we &^%$#$ around trying to solve the problem at our end. Some suppliers try to stay compeditive with lesser grade pipe. Unless you ask.... you do'nt know.

Scott

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Wrought Iron

I'm certainly no metallurgist, but it's my understanding that the high iron, extremely low carbon ore required for wrought iron is no longer available in commercial quantities. Decorative iron workers nearly kill for the stuff as it works easily and has a natural resistance to corrosion. The only commercial maker of "new" wrought iron (their claim) is in the UK and they actually re-manufacture old iron. It's extremely expensive.

In an old book I have the author (Starbuck) laments that "...[in the last few years] the quality of wrought iron has decreased and the quality of steel increased such that they can now be considered equal."

Frank_5

welded gas pipe

Here in NYC you can screw 4" and smaller, (low pressure). Test it @ 3psi for half an hour. 5" & larger must be welded by a certified welder & tested @ 50 psi for an hour.

Side bar to Canadian material:
We were doing a gut rehab, and when we started running the 4" no hub stacks, I measured out a piece from starter fitting to the next, (eg 9'6") & told the helper to take off 6" from a length. The #$%&@* pipe he gave me was the wrong size. I'm yelling at him, he throws up the 6" piece he cut to me on the baker, cursing me. We then measured another lenght. Seems the pipe was Canadian and it was 3 meters, not 10 ft. Lesson well remembered, cut the measurement, don't subtract.

[Deleted User]

i have a ward paperweight

that was supposed to be a 1'' cap. would have been really usefull if the plant would have put some threads in it. i was actually embarrased cause i'm the big quality of material stickler.

Jim Walls_2

Cut the measurement

I also learned this the hard way , although it was not due to the metric system or defective material. Was plumbing a new Hampton Inn motel in '87, 4 floors, all sanitary waste & vent installed w/ no-hub cast iron. In an effort to keep an inexperienced helper productive ( pre-fab anything & everything ,all the time ,big,small,on site ,off site) Needed a 9'6" piece of 4" to continue stacks from the last ftg on 1st floor to 1st fitting on second floor & same from 2nd to 3rd floor. Informed my helper to cut 6" off of 32 lengths of 4" pipe and distibute them between the 2 floors. I returned and installed the first piece , it didnot look right , it's too short , 1st thought ,oh no , my measurement was wrong , double checked , measurement is correct but the helper cut the pieces 8'6" instead of 9'6" !!! I was furious , blamed the helper , regretfully w/o getting the facts 1st . Turns out , our company bought the job out at a time when Charlotte had some pipe avaiable at a discounted price because they were cutting a foot off of these pieces to inspect them. Skid after skid of 9'foot lengths of 4" , removed feet from mouth & apologized to the helper. Communicate , communicate, communicate, live & learn & learn & learn

Tony Conner

I've Heard...

... "explanations" like that before. In one case, the pipe diameter was different. The contractor had been sold structural tubing, not pipe. It was blamed on different pipe diameters in Canada. Nope.

Any commodity item like pipe that's made here in Canada will dimentionally match US material. It may have a metric size designation tacked on, but it will be based on the Imperial dimension. There's far too much of an installed base, and too much cross border trading to do otherwise. The only two differences that come to mind are: the standard industrial voltage here is 550, and Robertson (square) head screws. Why screws have anything BUT Roberston heads just baffles me. They stay on your screwdriver while you fish it into awkward areas like the back of electrical boxes (nothing has to be magnetic, they'll just stay there), and while you give the butt of the screwdriver handle a smack with your hand to start it through thin sheet metal or into wood. And, best of all, you can just crank the snot out of them (in or out) without your screwdriver slipping.

Alan Muller

Robertson

Actually, Robertson screws aren't uncommon in the US, though they are far less common than Phillips and it's variations. I once read somewhere that Robertson himself was a very nationalistic Canadian and didn't want to promote his screws is the US because he hated Americans. I have no idea if this is true....

am

Alan Muller

pipe lengths

If ya read the specs for pipe, some variation in length is allowed in each bundle....

am

Tony Conner

I Worked With...

... some U.S elecricians and HVAC guys 10 or 15 years ago, and they'd never heard of Robertson. Maybe they were just an isolated group, or possibly, word has gotten out.

The story I heard about Robertson head screws was that many years ago, a U.S. radio manufacturer wanted to keep Canadian units out. The angle he got through legistlation was to ban the Robertson screw. (Electrical equipment here is put together with almost exclusively Robertson.) There was a show on Robertson and his screw head on the History Channel here a couple of months ago, but all I caught was the last few minutes. I haven't seen it run again. I'd like to know what the real story is.

If you're an electician or sheet metal worker here without a set of Robertson screwdrivers, you might as well stay home.

Jim Walls

A53B

Tony , you mentioned this rating a few posts back in this thread , we have just recently had some problems w/ A53B 2-1/2" pipe ,comming from our supplier roll grooved , ends splitting on the welds. I have not had time to speak to our supplier yet , but the discussions here have definitely peaked my interest in our current problem.