PEERLESS \"PINNACLE\" BOILERS

eleft_4

hr,

Guess that goes for me to: 1946 vintage. I like the write up on the Opus!


al

mgs

What is your experience with the "Pinnacle" or "Munchkin"
boilers. Can we really expect any longevity out of these units?

Any inforamtion on these units would be appreciatd

Mark Hunt

How long do you want them to last?

How long should any boiler last????

If the coal boiler that was installed in 1897, converted to oil in 1927, and then to gas in 1997, isn't leaking should you replace it?????

People buy cars that they are willing to spend 25k+ and fully expect to trade them in in five years. But new boiler for 5k is too much?!?!?!

Yes we will get longeveity out of the Munchkin and the Pinnacle.

Define longevity.

Mark H

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Unknown

This must me a sore subject , Mark .

It sounds like a good question to me . It isnt hard to understand why a cast iron boiler built 50 years ago might last longer than one built today - they were huge , and sacraficed alot of efficiency being that way . Whereas the cast iron of a new Peerless looks like it might crack if you drop it not too hard . My thinking is that customers will relate high efficiency boilers of today with being finicky , hard to troubleshoot , and wont last as long as a new conventional boiler . Personally , I think 20 years is a good number to strive for before needing a new one . But the average age of our replacements is around 40 .

Boilerpro

Yes, but...

isn't replacing a boiler twice as often going to eat up all the savings of higher efficiency. In single boiler applications, I still think a simple atmospheric boiler with a good tekmar control is the best investment. Repairs are inexpensive and rare, life is very long, and efficiency is nearly as good. I bet a good boiler control with a typical 80% efficient boiler will use about the same amount of fuel as a 90% boiler because boiler effiency is boosted and system efficiency is improved. I believe one of the reasons smart folks want boiler heat is because they don't want to have to replace thier heating unit every 12 to 15 years like the hot air guys.

Boilerpor

Floyd

Seems to be a valid ? to me....

I seem to remember replacing and repairing a ton of Hydropluse boilers
that were 90+ eff. concrete and copper and "would last for ever"!!!!
At 4G's plus they sure didn't pan out to be a very sound investment.......
I'll wait, watch, and observe, for a while....
Even my grandpa wouldn't buy a new John Deere the first year......
get the bugs out.... let them prove themselves..... then I'll get on the
band wagon!!!!


Floyd

Earthfire

longlived equipment

My mom just sold the family home after 46yrs.Has a Bryant gas hot air furnace that was installed in 1948 . furnace is still going strong. I put a fan motor on it about 15 years ago. Change the air filter about 3 times a season and oil the motor and fan twice a season no other major repairs .they don't make them like that today.

Mark Hunt

Didn't mean it to sound negative, it's tough to get emotions across in a post.


It is an EXCELLENT question and a point that that I try to impress on customers.

Folks have no problem spending 20k or more on a vehilce that they plan to keep for only five years but balk at paying 3k or more for something that they expect to lasr forever.

Sorry if I sounded negative in my response, I didn't mean to.

Mark H

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Boilerpro

If they did..

I bet the price difference between boilers and furnaces wouldn't be nearly so great. When I see some of those older furnaces around, I tell them to keep it or install hot water. It seems most new scorchers need repairs so often, that what they save in fuel bills is eaten up by repair costs.

Boilerpro

hr

A lot of our current hydronics

are driven by European design and tech. I think Dan has told the story of chimney sweeps in Germany that yearly check heating appliance emissions. If your equipment doesn't pass, off goes the gas until it is upgraded or repaired. The emission standards and fuel use is much more of a concern for them.

Probably why most of the proven high efficiency products come from overseas.

I'll bet when and if the USA starts checking heating emissions and fuel useage a lot of old tech stuff will be scrap yard bound. Condensing equipment and technology will flourish here also.

Hats off to MZ, Munchkin, and Viessman to name a few for going cutting edge in the high efficiency boiler arena.

Some day energy prices will drive this change in our country. May be sooner than you think if GW keeps pissing off all the oil producing countries

hot rod

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Unknown

Longevity

After being in this business for almost 40 years and in particular the gas industry it is evident to me up to this time that older seems to typically last longer with less trouble. There are some rare exceptions to that. Having said that the question today is efficiency and what I call the demand for comfort which is way beyond what us old timers called comfort (sometimes a blanket and a hot toddy to keep warm.)

I have in the last twenty years seen many warm air and hydronic systems come and be labeled by advertisers as the equipment of the future. They told us the installers and service people that easy installation and trouble free would be the way it would go. A good percent of those units now sit at curb side every so often waitng to occupy some land fill. The old inefficient units that sort of growl and grumble along are still working. Gas and oil controls on some equipment that is over 50 years old. I guess I am getting a little cynical in my old age but I teach them and talk about them and want to help everyone to understand them. But I refuse to take out my 50 year old GE Cast Iron Furnace that I converted to Powerpile many years ago. Since recently finding out that by doing that I am now the manufacturer of that furnace. It still has the original GE motor that came with the furnace. Yes I have done some things to it to make it more efficient and yes I maintain it very well.

Please do not misunderstand me I am all for better, more efficient and easier to install and service. The question is here in this post HOW LONG WILL IT LAST. Based on past history maybe not so long. Maybe we should sell them as a two for the price of one so we can have an easy replacement when the first one fails.

Henry_4

THis is all

> I bet the price difference between boilers and

> furnaces wouldn't be nearly so great. When I see

> some of those older furnaces around, I tell them

> to keep it or install hot water. It seems most

> new scorchers need repairs so often, that what

> they save in fuel bills is eaten up by repair

> costs.

>

> Boilerpro

Henry_4

I am trying

to come up with a judicious way of saying what is floating in my head. Furnaces are going to continue to be cheap. However, anyone can buy a monster steel thermopride furnace that will last for a long time and costs more money, but they do not. At the same time, many contractors sell the benefits of "boiler" heat and install a low mass fin tube.
I do know of applications (outdoor placement) where only a fin tube will work, but for the most part, spending more money for cast iron, be it Viessmann, Weil, Burnham, whomever is going to be a better investment. The point is, people can spend money for better furnaces, boilers, water heaters, etc. and they do not.

Why? We have done a rotten job of selling value. I want heat, I buy a cheap furnace, I have heat that I never have to worry about.....wrong, I can rip off the names of more junk hot air furnaces than I care to admit, but people still buy them. The owner thinks that he is getting value, and the insolent contractor that refuses to offer up any solutions because of a fear that he will be more money has just done our industry a tremendous disservice.

The same is true of the contractor, there are many where I live, that think they do a service to the customer by offering the cheapest water heater they can find for radiant. We all know that a boiler with a tank for domestic and a hot water coil for upstairs heat is far superior. Again, ask why.... the contractor is afraid he will lose the job if he tries to offer anything better or he just doesn't know any other way.

So, what is the solution? Do we hand out more boots and jackets to contractors if they will only buy our boilers? Do we continue to drop the price of our equipment and labor so that we become more competitive with cheaper, less valuable equipment (note the difference between cost and value)? I can always find a boiler that is five dollars cheaper. How about educating the contractor who in turn educates the end user? I know that this is easier said than done, but how does anyone grow a market? Hotrod did not just hand a sign on the wall that said I do radiant and suddenly, he was an expert and everyone in central MO. was ready to buy something from him. Of course not, he worked his **** of and now he has an awesome reputation and a growing business (I hope for you sake, hr )

The point is, we all have a sphere of influence and we hinder it every time we **** out our abilities and offer something we know is not the best for the sake of getting the job. Even if we believe that the enduser will never accept the best, who are we to decide what they should and should not have. How many car salesman qualify every person that walks onto the lot and determines what he will and will not sell them? No, that sales person gives the buyer every benefit of the doubt for any car on the lot, not just the Yugo (oh sir, you certainly do not want a Pontiac, it is far to much money and not really worth it). We may smile at the absurdity, but we do it all the time.

The point is, we have only have ourselves to blame, not just for the low margins and uneducated customer base, but also for the low quality equipment that is prevalent in our industry.

After writing this diatribe, I realize that it has nothing to do with the subject at hand, but it is connected. If you have read this far, thanks.
Henry

Unknown

I think buying a car

and buying a boiler are at 2 different points of the spectrum , in the customers point of view . I think a boiler being out of sight and out of mind - until it breaks - , where a car is driven every day , is a big factor . And you cant trade in a boiler after 3 years for the newer model - yet . But you are right . We work in million dollar homes quite often , and more times than not they will go for the cheapie steel boiler rather than top of the line . And we have to maneuver the boiler through the 3 car garage with the new Benz and Vette in 2 spots .

hr

That being said Timmie

if you were to build a new home, and couldn't fine a 50 year old GE to install (grin), what would you install to heat your new home. I'm not convinced the current crop of "light weight" valued engineered cast iron will last longer than the copper of stainless high efficiency stuff. Are you? Seem a 100,000 cast boiler doesn't weigh all that much more than copper these days.

I understand and agree, they just don't make it like they used to.

I wonder with todays building materials and practices how many residential buildings will be standing 50 years after they were built. Wafer board, vinyl siding, dimensional lumber that keep shrinking in diminsions! A current 2X4 is closer to a 1X3 Didn't hurricane Andrew destroy a few thousand new homes?

Certainly the automotive industry has caved to this mentality, How many of us drive 15 year old vechicles? How about 10 year old. The new stuff gets better and better in my opinion. Cleaner, safer, more comfortable, better fuel efficiency etc.

hot rod

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Boilerpro

From what I've heard.I bet Timmie would put in a Thermopride...

> if you were to build a new home, and couldn't

> fine a 50 year old GE to install (grin), what

> would you install to heat your new home. I'm not

> convinced the current crop of "light weight"

> valued engineered cast iron will last longer than

> the copper of stainless high efficiency stuff.

> Are you? Seem a 100,000 cast boiler doesn't weigh

> all that much more than copper these days.

>

> I

> understand and agree, they just don't make it

> like they used to.

>

> I wonder with todays

> building materials and practices how many

> residential buildings will be standing 50 years

> after they were built. Wafer board, vinyl siding,

> dimensional lumber that keep shrinking in

> diminsions! A current 2X4 is closer to a 1X3

> Didn't hurricane Andrew destroy a few thousand

> new homes?

>

> Certainly the automotive

> industry has caved to this mentality, How many

> of us drive 15 year old vechicles? How about 10

> year old. The new stuff gets better and better

> in my opinion. Cleaner, safer, more comfortable,

> better fuel efficiency etc.

>

> hot rod

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,

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Buy it once and that's it!


Boilerpro

Boilerpro

From what I've heard I bet Timmie would put in a Thermopride...

Buy it once and that's it!


Boilerpro