steam boiler battery back-up system

[Deleted User]

for a battery backup system for his old steam boiler. its a 24 volt system. my first thought was a sump-pump style back up system that fed a a contact switch on a relay that would have to be installed on the original 110 line. but my question is, has anyone done this before and is there a ready made, off the shelf product for this. we have power outages here all the time.

Bob W._2

I'm interested in the same.....

but, aren't 24V systems AC? Will they work with DC?

[Deleted User]

i remember my dad had a

marine battery backup to his sump pump when i was a kid. it supplied, somehow, 110 ac. to the sump pump when the power was out. this was in chicago, and i remember lots of folks had them.

Mad Dog

Why not convert to a .............

Powerpile system ?????????? It is self sustaining, and will work thru poweroutages. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

[Deleted User]

that would entail what,

just changing the gas control and pilot? the mechanical low water cutoff wouldn't care if it was 24 volt or millivolt i dont think, its just a switch??

Art Pittaway_2

If there's a LWCO on the 24v system and you go to a power pile won't you loose the safety of the low water cut off?

Art Pittaway_2

lwco

If there's a LWCO on the 24v system and you go to a power pile won't you loose the safety of the low water cut off?

[Deleted User]

i would assume

the powerpile lead would now be run through the lwco switch.

Frank_5

powerpile & lwco

Been a long time, but I seem to remember there are two types of switches for the #67. A black and a red. The black offers too much resistance for a powerpile. Check w/MM rep to see if'n I'm right. Otherwise it's just a basic series wiring connection. Also, you should make sure there is not any oxydation on any wire connections. Take them apart, re-strip and reconnect w/wire nuts. Again it's that resistance thing.
There was a time when I knew a lot.......now I have trouble remembering anything!

Unknown

Converting to Powerpile

will require you to change the gas valve and install a pilot generator in the pilot. Some pilots will let you do that others will not. That would mean a new pilot. Suggest a Honeywell VS820A-1054 3/4" x 3/4" with a Q314A pilot match up to tip style on Page 58 of Honeywell catalog, that is if you have to change the pilot. Make sure after you change the pilot that you conduct a pilot safety turndown test. If you do not know how to do that e-mail me and I will send you a copy of the procedure. You will need a Honeywell Q313A-1022 generator. As for the LWCO if it is a McDonnel Miller # 67 you will need a McDonnell Miller part # 309200 11-MV switch for millivolt service. Just wire it up with 18 gauge thermostat wire from the thermostat which will also have to be changed to a powerpile thermostat Honeywell TS86A-1421 thru the pressuretrol and low water cutoff to the gas valve. The generator goes on the PP terminals on the valve and the control wires go on the TH terminals on the gas valve. Once that is done with steam you do not have to worry about power outages. My warm air furnace is on powerpile and it will stay until I die. Power failure all I have to do is take the door off the blower compartment slip my special piece of duct work over it to isolate it from the combustion air and we are getting gravity heat. you can do the same thing with forced hot water with the correct relay with a manual switch on it. The only other concern you have when you do this is libility. I am sure some folks will jump all over that part of this post.

[Deleted User]

thanks everyone, its really helped

now we can pull the rabbit out of the hat.

Bob W._2

It seems to me it might be easier to stay with 24V AC ....

and just rig up some some of 24V DC source (2 auto or marine batteries) with an invertor of some sort to generate 24V AC; I'll ask an electronics buddy about it and post back if there is a ready solution.

Bob W._2

Another thought....

I could probably rig up something like this: we have one of those small inverters from Walmart for the minivan, to run the kids' Game Cube, etc. Could use an extension cord (heavy enough to avoid voltage drop) and supply 120v right to the line side of the disconnect; just dis-connect the regular line coming in. Start up the car every so often and charge the battery. Should work.

Unknown

Timmie

Liability is similar to when a person puts a gas conversion burner into an oil boiler or, for that matter, an old coal boiler. It hasn't been tested and approved, is no longer U.L. listed, and goes under "unlisted appliance" codes. You become the manufacturer of this appliance, and are responsible for it's testing and saftey.

NFPA 54 covers this, the National Fuel Gas Code. I know you know all this, Timmie, but I thought I'd present it for others.

On your set-up with powerpile, you skipped the roll out switch and blocked vent saftey switch. Dampers are required now, on the stacks, on new boilers. That is the real problem, with today's codes. How do you drive a damper and prove it open with a millevolt generator?

Noel

Unknown

good idea

I have one, too. If you have any electronics on it (thermostat, etc.) the quality of the sine wave can effect them. Check into that side of it, before you buy. I have one for my car for comera batteries and laptop charging. I love it.

Unknown

Noel....

Gerry Gill posted the question: "customer asked for a battery backup for his old steam boiler which is 24 volts". So I assume that old means that it does not have spark ignition, vent damper, roll out switch, blocked vent switch and all the other stuff that has been put on boilers in the last 10 years or so. If it does do not attempt to convert to powerpile.

I have a question so I might not tell someone something incorrect. Where in NFPA 54 does it say you can not convert or recontrol a system. Suppose I have an V-155 gas valve obsolete, with a obsolete pilot and other unavailable controls. Can I recontrol that boiler which is in perfectly good condition? I do not find any thing in NFPA 54 that says I can not instll a conversion burner in a boiler. We have thousands here in New England. I refer to ANSI Z21.8 - 1984-1990-1993 Installation of Domestic Gas Conversion Burners. If we should not be converting this equipment then the companies that make these burners, Carlin, Midco, Wayne and others should be put out of business. A serviceman has no alternative when he is out on a job and has to give the customer heat but to come up with a safe and effective replacement many times. Help me and others here as a manufacturer to solve this problem. I have been working on this with control companies and boiler and furnace manufacturers for years. Heres one for you the Honeywell CS82 Pilot Generator with a Q302 generator made by Honeywell and used on conversion burners and some design equipment. It is obsolete and by the way there are thousand of them around. In fact a posting several months back Dave Yates posted an answer to what is the replacement, I agree with him and in fact instruct people on how to do the changeover. SHOULD WE STOP DOING THIS???? If so then will the control companies and manufacturers take responsibility for coming out with replacments that are factory authorized. I would by the way feel much better with Powerpile that some battery system other than a liscensed installation of a gasoline genrator to cover power failures. Just my opinion. Also in the case of vent dampers why don't they sell just the actuators and not the whole damper for replacement? I could spend hours telling you all the problems service people face and solve because other than yourself and maybe a few others representation is often slow or missing entirely.

No matter what we do we are liable so why not solve problems do it SAFELY and sleep well at night because we helped a customer to quickly and safely get there system back on line. And I am one very tough guy when it comes to SAFETY just ask anyone from Providence Gas Comapny.

Dale

Remember that

the 24 volt ac valve coil has inductance as well as resistance. Bottom line 24 DC can wreck the valve. Just for grins ohm out any 24 volt ac coil and use ohms law Amps = Volts/OHMs and the amps will be much higher than measured amps and much higher that the output rating of the tfmr. What you calculate is what you would get with 24 DC. I would stick to the 24 volts AC and use the inverter.

Dale

I kind of agree with Timmie

on this. Unless you only work on new equipment there's no getting away from the parts liability. In reality it's always down to what a reasonable person would do. We convert powerpile to 24AC all the time on equipment that hasn't been built in 40 years or sometimes 80 years and the manufacturer is long gone. This is why training for the service man is so important and why the owner of the business needs to constantly remind the staff that their main job is public safety NOT getting heat or hot water. With the combinded and separate liability rule if you look at it there's always a chance some lawyer can find you 5% responsible.

Unknown

Timmie, I agree

With what you both said. I also have worked for a Gas Utility and put in plenty of E-20s. The company had a policy to do so.

Unless the appliance is installed with the parts that go with the model number on the label, it is not listed. Unlisted appliances are legal, just under a different category.

If you take a company's parts and assemble them together in a way that isn't U.L. listed yet, it is unlisted. If you do this, you are the manufacturer.

As I said, the utility was willing to accept the liability of it's men putting Midco's equipment into an old coal boiler and test the limits per code.

I don't see another way that they can let you do it. Ask your insurance carrier if it is feasable for you to remanufacture obsolete equipment with modern, safe controls.

If you do remanufacture it, the current codes would apply. The blocked vent and rollout switches are currently required.

Unknown

to help, I'll type in from NFPA 54-1999

Appendix A:

A.1.7 Approved. The National Fire Protection Association does not approve, inspect, or certify any installations, procedures, equipment, or materials; nor does it approve or evaluate testing laboratories. In determining the acceptability of installations, procedures, equipment, or materials, the authority having jurisdiction may base acceptance on compliance with NFPA or other appropriate standards. In the absence of such standards, said authority may require evidence of proper installation, procedure, or use. The Authority Having Jurisdiction may also refer to the listings or labeling practices of an organization that is concerned with product evaluations and is thus in a position to determine compliance with appropriate standards for the current production of listed items.

A.1.7 Listed. The means for identifying listed equipment may vary for each organization concerned with product evaluation; some organizations do not recognize equipment as listed unless it is also labeled. The Authority Having Jurisdiction should utilize the system employed by the listing organization to identify a listed product.

[Deleted User]

yup, it is an old boiler

not the original but an old vapor boiler. still works tho, the homeowner would just like it to work when the old power lines outside freeze and fall off the pole.this has been an excellent thread for me. ive learned alot. thanks.

Eric

EMERGENCY POWER

HOW ABOUT A UPS SIMILIAR FOR A COMPUTERS ON THE 110 VOLT CIRCUIT AND CALL IT A DAY.

DEPENDING ON OUTAGE TIME YOU CAN GET EXTRA BATTERIES FOR UPS IN AMP HRS OR

OTHERWISE GO WITH MANUAL TRANSFER SWITCHES AND GENERATOR OR BATTERY AND INVERTER.

Unknown

This has been quite a post

from a simple question. I am very familiar with the sections of NFPA 54 Noel sites. When I worked for the gas company here in RI when incident occured the Authority Having Jurisdiction was the Fire Marshall's Office. That is still the same today. So I called and presented the question and all the alternatives there answer was- If it is gas check with the gas company and what ever they say we will support and go along with. The problem we now have in many gas utilities is that the old-timers have left and no one has answers anymore. That is exactly what I got when I called the Gas Company no one had an answer. It was then I called the Department of Regulation they said check with the gas company. I told them I had done that with no results. Answer: then you can not replace obsolete controls on equipment without authorization from the manufacturer. If they are out of business or will not give approval then install new equipment. SO NOW IT MAY POSSIBLY BE THAT EVERYTHING OBSOLETE IN RHODE ISLAND HAS TO BE REPLACED WITH NEW EQUIPMENT YOU CAN NOT REPAIR IT. YOU ALSO CAN NOT CONVERT EQUIPMENT WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM THE MANUFACTURER AND IT WILL HAVE TO BE TESTED BY AN AUTHORIZED TESTING AGENCY UL, AGA, ETL ETC. I would be curious to find out what other states allow. No wonder people do not want to get into this business anymore.

[Deleted User]

ya know timmie

i guess as men, we just have to do what we believe is right, and accept the responsibility for our decisions.i guess it will keep me more focused on striving to obtain that all elusive work quality, perfection. havent got there yet but keep trying. screw the lawyers, i'll change the part.