Chicago Plumber's Questions-

ScottMP

We are in the process of renovating a small house from Steam to Hydronic panels. Real fun job and we are excited about it.

My customer had a relative from Chicago who claimed to be a contractor. He was impressed with what we are doing, but claimed in his neck of the woods NO Pex tubing allowed on heating system No PVC piping for drains ???? No Pex tubing for heat ???? Does this sound correct ? I understand some localitys have their own codes, but this sound backwards.

Anybody out there set me straight.

Scott

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don_9

Scott

Did he ever say where he was from?Its the first for me
also.What part of chicago.

ScottMP

Don

He did and I did'nt really catch it.

It just sounded like somebody was giving him a hosing. Then again, he claimed that they have individual codes and not one uniform state code, could that be correct ? Had to use copper or steel on a heating system renovation. That can't be right.

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don_9

Scott

I hope I don't offend you,but maybe someone peaing in
his ear and calling it rain and he just dont know any better.
Don

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Possible

Illinois and Chicago in particular have some really strict codes, strange laws and particularly stong unions. If their building codes are anything like their liquor laws, most everything is highly regulated (and very highly taxed) at every level with extremely broad--almost arbitrary--differences at the local level. Insurance and labor requirements are often so strict and expensive that these seem to become a "tax" as well.

Relatives of mine lived in and near Chicago. Unless things changed very recently, plastic DWV piping is a strict no-no--still cast iron, oakum, lead and limited threaded galvanized.

Romex is a BIG TIME no-no as well. Wiring is in rigid metal (I believe) conduit. BX is only allowed for things like the connections to exhaust fans/can lights and in some renovations. Forget plastic work boxes.

They seem to have big-time resistance to anything plastic.

It would not surprise me if only steel/copper is allowed in heating systems in some areas.

BTW, Illinois has always seemed strange to me. Unions hold an extraordinary amount of power. While certainly useful and sometimes necessary, that state is rather "flipped out" on them.

I live across the river from Southern Illinois. There is a current, genuine concerted effort by the southern section of Illinois to split from the state because they claim they don't get their share of tax money.

Funny--their roads are better and most of their schools are newer and their teachers better paid than the vast majority of Missouri. Guess they've got to make more money to pay all them "dues."

ScottMP

there you go....

Mike, sounds like thats the word. This guy mentioned all that you said about electrical. No pvc for drains just sounded backwards but I guess its true in some area's. I've been involved in the trade for twenty odd years now and we Started with pvc. Everywhere is different.

Scott

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don_9

Overwhelm

Mike,Rigid piping, no romex,plastic boxs.All hard pipein on the waterside?Wow!!! How long is a normal project and whats
the cost.Its sure sounds like someone has there hands deep in the kettle.Sorry Mr contactor whom ever you are.
Thankful to be living in the sweet virginia breeze.I stand corrected.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

True

Not certain what they use for underground waste lines--it might still be clay!

Heaven knows they'll NEVER allow the nice new flexible natural gas lines even if they ARE infinitely safer in an earthquake!

Boilerpro

Grew up in Chicago

And yes that contractor hit the nail on the head. I think PVC is allowed under very limited conditions now, gas line all black steel, electrical all in steel conduit (residential and commercial). Got my Architecture degree at IIT in Chicago (35th and State). As Backwards as the codes are, there are probably very few places that have the number of high quality contractors as Chicago does working in big commerical high rise work. That's probably one of the reasons why its an Architectural Mecca. Burnham, Wright, Griffin, Adler and Sullivan, Mies, and numerous other gifted architects/ builders all called Chicago home.


Boilerpro

Dale

Until recently

A lead wiped joint was part of the water test in chicago. I think the city of San Francisco is just as strict.

[Deleted User]

i grew up there also

it was the most strict building code i'd ever seen. its origins were from the ''great chicago fire''. they just started to allow frame construction of houses in the last few years. before that,,,brick baby,,,all brick, no veneer.

Boilerpro

Yep, Chicago, home of the brick \".......house\"

I grew up barely in the city, way south in Beverly Hills/ Morgan Park.....Couldn't afford to live there now, twas a nice place to grow up, though. BTW Glenn Stanton is going to be conducting training seminars in Hillside this Thursday the 15th for Engler. I am going to be there, not sure if your still in the area?

Boilerpro

Paul Cooke

Chicago

Yo, Mr. Boilerpro

I grew up on the south side of Chicago and spent many weekend nights hanging out in Beverly at the McDonalds. Most of the Catholic girls lived out south and we tended to gravitate to that part of town.

Do you still live in the Chicago area? I would like to be able to recommend someone to my Chicago relatives and friends.

I just returned from a brief visit to the windy city. I was swimming in beautiful Lake Michigan yesterday and was able to catch a Sox game Friday night. It's a great city.

Paul Cooke

One more Chicago thought

Every time I am back in Chicago I am always drawn to the basements of my friends and relatives. One major difference I noticed is the lack of any serious backflow prevention on the hot water systems. This surprises me and makes me wonder about the intelligence behind a local building authority that won't allow plastic pipe, and, on the other hand, doesn't recognize the need to protect the city's drinking water from the dregs in the radiators.

Perhaps I am seeing older systems and all new installations have protection. I hope so.

Boilerpro

I've thought about that too

Backflow preventor requirements aren't enforced very much even out here. I remember seeing the boilers in apartment buildings piped with a basic B-38 fill valve( at least it has a check valve) and then a hard piped bypass around it. If you got lucky someone may have piped another check valve in the fill line.
I'm located about 2 to 2 1/2 hours west of Chicago in a small town called Amboy Just follow route 30 west and where it hits 52. Moved out here because houses in Beverly were way too rich for us. I was one of those few Protestants in Beverly...I think there are even less now. Suppose you spent some time around Mc Cauly girls, eh.

Boilerpro

Online Sheriff \"Murph\"

ha!!

i live on route 30, about 9 hrs to the right !!

Paul Cooke

You got it

That's right. Those wild girls were from McCauly.

Never heard of Amboy, but it sounds nice.

Mad Dog

I'm glad that some localities are holding the line..............

against this constant onslaught of inferior materials and the death of craftsmanship. In some cases (radiant tubing)modern materials are superior, but Cast Iron on DWV is far superior in every way to PVC. Copper on domestic water is the only way to go. I don't know if anybody knows or cares, but we Are losing some much in our trade everyday. Quality is thrown by the wayside.....craftsmanship is on its way out via pex on domestic water and fire sprinkler..flex supplies.....What's next??? garden hose (I agree with ya R.S. English) Pvc not only above-ground, but below!!!! ...even in commercial work now....and don't tell me it holds up just as long as IRon...it doesn't!!!!! Seen it!!!!Do we use PVC sure...but only because the market dictates it...but every chance we get, we put in the tried and true materials. We won't put copper headers on steam...don't even like 'em on the returns.... Our business card does state..."We're from the old school..." and we wear it proudly. God Bless our trade and God Bless AMERICA!!!!!! Matt "Mad Dog Sweeney of Triple Crown INc......I can't wait for "The Gathering"....

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Andy N.

I agree with Boilerpro.

Chicago Codes are very strict, as are the plumbing license laws. Illinois license laws are very strict and definite as well. I live just outside of the "windy city" and work downtown once in a while. Lead/oakum cast iron and copper dwv. no plastic allowed. Out here in the suburbs we can use Pvc underground and above, copper or galvanized on water lines, some city codes allow stainless gas lines, although earthquakes are not a problem here. Backflow prevention is strictly enforced in nearly every city/town in Illinois, Chicago especially. Backflow prevention is always growing, as people are educated as to what can and will happen if a Backflow program is not implemented by each municipality.

The Unions are very powerful here, and I am proud to say I am a UA instructor. We turn apprentices out of a 5 year training program. When they leave this program they are either licensed plumbers or certified welders. The standard of living up here is excellent, so you would have a hard time telling me that there is no need for such control.

sorry about the rant but I am proud of Illinois codes and the amount we invest in our apprentices/journeymen plumbers and pipefitters.

Andy N.

Boilerpro

HI , Andy

> Chicago Codes are very strict, as are the

> plumbing license laws. Illinois license laws are

> very strict and definite as well. I live just

> outside of the "windy city" and work downtown

> once in a while. Lead/oakum cast iron and copper

> dwv. no plastic allowed. Out here in the suburbs

> we can use Pvc underground and above, copper or

> galvanized on water lines, some city codes allow

> stainless gas lines, although earthquakes are not

> a problem here. Backflow prevention is strictly

> enforced in nearly every city/town in Illinois,

> Chicago especially. Backflow prevention is always

> growing, as people are educated as to what can

> and will happen if a Backflow program is not

> implemented by each municipality.

>

> The Unions

> are very powerful here, and I am proud to say I

> am a UA instructor. We turn apprentices out of a

> 5 year training program. When they leave this

> program they are either licensed plumbers or

> certified welders. The standard of living up here

> is excellent, so you would have a hard time

> telling me that there is no need for such

> control.

>

> sorry about the rant but I am proud

> of Illinois codes and the amount we invest in our

> apprentices/journeymen plumbers and

> pipefitters.

>

> Andy N.

Paul Cooke

Inferior materials

I agree with you that inferior materials should not be used in any piping whether residential or commercial. But, to say that C.I. is superior to PVC or ABS in all situations is not the case. I can't count the number of rotted out C.I.
horizontal drain lines I have replaced over the years. These have been primarily in restuarants where the soda pop has disolved the metal. I'm sure that plastic would have lasted longer.

I have also seen plenty of copper pipe with pinhole leaks. These have occurred in places where the structure was less than 20 years old. I'm betting that PEX will outlast copper in any building with marginal water quality.

Mad Dog

Materials

I'll back ya on soda wastes, but L copper will go toe to toe with PVC on soda wastes. I've replaced tons of PVC that were used in commercial applications. Within 5-8 years, the PVC is pulling apart at the joints, sagging horribly (even with "proper" hangar spacing), splitting, and - so much for being so smooth - large scale and grease buildup, thus stoppages. Cast Iron, galvanized, and copper have been installed for the last 80 years and in case of CI...over 100! Not a bad performance? Heh? PVC has been goin' in for about 30 years...let's see if it can hold out another 50 ....doubt it!!!!! You know as well as I, that pin hole leaks in copper are not too common, and when they do occur it is most often an electrical grounding problem. The other big downside to these "new school" materials, is that craftsmanship suffers greatly. Laying out and installing a house in Bell & Spigot with lead and oakum, and the branches in Galvanized Durham screw pipe requires TONS of skill.....layin' down two zones of radiant pex on a plywood floor: a few pounds worth. Don't get me wrong, Some of the new stuff is great, but I prefer to see if all these latest technologies will stand the test of time. Mad Dog

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Glenn Harrison

As another greater Chicago area tech who grew up on the North Shore Chicago suburb of Deerfield, and still lives in Lake County, I know that the only time PVC can be used in Chicago and some other area suburbs is to vent high efficiency equipment, and it was a major battle to get this allowance passed. My understanding is that the anti PVC codes were designed to protect the firefighters from the toxic fumes created by PVC when the pipe melted in fires. I can't speak for the PEX part though. I haven't heard anything about that one.

Mike Kraft

I agree and disagree

I started in this biz loading with iron and lead.Soon ABS and PVC was accepted for venting above all waste.Next came the total change and iron went to the shelves.I understand the pride that MD is barking about.

Pex for domestic is something I'm getting into lately.For neatness it cant hold a candle to a clean CU job.But living in an area that the wells are rittled with low PH many of the homes are springing leaks within the first 10 years.Pex comes with a 25 year warranty and it can withstand freezing unlike CU.

I respect the ways of old and admire the men and women who still hold true to an art that is falling to the wayside.

cheese

Mad Dog

So very eloquent cheese!!!!!!!!

I hear ya....it's a balancing act...isn't it Mad Dog AAAAAAAAAroooooooooooooooHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

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Art Pittaway_2

Consider another

motive....quite a few years ago I was talking to the maint. super. at a well known tower in the Chicago loop. He complained about the electric snow melt, how every year they had to replace 4 - 5 of the concrete sections. We talked about a hydronic snowmelt system. Never need to repair that concrete again he was told. All of a sudden he got real serious and quietly told us that his men depended every year on that work and that it would be real unhealthy if someone should fix that little problem. So it just might be that there are people out here pouring a Coke down the drain for other reasons than that it got warm.

Boilerpro

Art, you hit the nail on th head

More often than we'd like the only reason things are still done the old way is because it keeps certain people employed.

Boilerpro

Mad Dog

Could be the case,,,,but

as an old Union man myself, it isn't all about...."staying busy"..."year round" ....The old timers i learned from would never "milk" a job...they did the right job out of respect for the trade and the "dead Men "that had gone before them...they took the punches ( Lay offs)as they came - without complaint!!!!! Mad Dog

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jf wisker

chicago plumbers question

have you guys ever bin in a living room with a
soil line running through the joists above when the toilet
is flushed?? not very plesent.you could insulate the line
but most of the time the pipe just fits the space.and the extra time and material cast iron would be cheaper.
also has anyone seen what extremly hot water dose to pvc
turns it to spaggeti lets keep the craft in the trade

Boilerpro

Mad Dog, You know the good Guys... and a short story

My former church in Chicago suffered a major Christmas week fire back in 92.. was all over the news throughout the country. When they were rebuilding, the pastor was looking over the work after hours. Suddenly about 12 big guys came up and surrounded him and were about to pummel him. Apparently, there were some nonunion contractors on the job and the union guys didn't like it. We can't ignore the fact that there are abuses. It sounds like the guys you are talking about were not only union, but more like part of a guild that expects every job to be a "masterpiece". The world could always use more folks like that.

Boilerpro

Mad Dog

I've been on both sides of the labor fence

union and non-union, in fact my own small shop is non-union. I must say that, yes, there are "goon squads" that bust up non-union jobs, sometimes hurting innocent non-union workers in the process (more of a thing of the past though...even blue collar union men have become a little more "sensitive"). This is wrong, and I refused to ever take part in one of those raids, and I've escorted a few guys to safety on several occassions. However, when a job is designated Union, and the sneaky G.C. is trying to get around the rules, something has to be done. When we were in a building doing work, we would stop anyone with tools and "book" them..."Hey buddy...you got a book?" If he didn't, we would call up the business agent and he would come down and either call the guys boss and try to get him to sign up or just tell the guy to leave. It may not seem fair, but that's the way it is if you want to get jobs in union territory. This has been going on since the labor struggle began. I also must say that the great men who taught me were not in any special guild, just top-notch union men. Today, there are not too many left like them, but, in general union quality is a step above non-union work (due to fine, apprentice programs), but I do see that slipping!. There are exceptions like the fine, high quality work of the Wallies, but realize we are quite unique among our industry. Today, union and non-union....the prevailing attitude is "Just get it done." what a shame....Mad Dog

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Art Pittaway_2

Hey, Mad Dog

I don't know if he was union or not. At the time it happened, none of us were going to ask or question the statements. I've never been a union member, but my grandfather worked with the Milk Wagon Drivers Union (Teamsters) until he died. And my dad had almost 30 years in the I.A.M. I've done training at fitters locals all over northern Illinois, and my experience is that you only have to show a union trained fitter how to put it together once, and it's done right.

Mad Dog

zacklee what um talkin' about

Art. Hey thanks for serving our great country and Semper Fidelis!!!!! Mad Dog

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