Viessmann vs. Engergy Kinetics 2000?

Jim Cheydleur

Apologies for not including this detail. My house has: 4 zones of HW baseboard heat & 2 HW unit heaters.

Jim Cheydleur

Viessmann vs. Engergy Kinetics 2000?

Hi, I live in Fairbanks, Alaska and am looking at replacing my 26 yr. old oil fired Burnham boiler (heating&DHW). Obviously, we've got lots of degree days (av. daily temp ~20F w. temps ranging fr. +90 to -65F). I had been thinking an Energy Kinetics 2000; recently I've been looking at a Viessmann 33 w. trimatic controls and outside temp sensor/modulator. I'm a bit startled by the Viesmann prices particularly the horizontal DHW tank prices (~$1600 for the glass lined version ).
Ultimately I'm looking for a major fuel savings along with maintaining existing comfort (not sure I'd see any "increased" comfort). EK2000 gets its savings by a low mass quick to heat steel boiler and dumps residual heat to DHW tank. I gather the Viesmann gets its savings by being able to cool down deeper (w. fast heat up, & DHW priority) and modulated boiler temps linked to outside temp and outside temp change?.

1. Anybody have experience w. both EK2000 & Viessmann? and today would choose?


2. What about using the Viesmann w. a side arm DHW heat exchanger and storage tank?


3. Any thoughts about trimatic controls vs. vitotronic - I could choose either but, of course, would pay more for vitotronic.

4. The Viesmann orange 33 is "last year's model" factory equipped with a Rialto? gun (and cheaper as a result). Any reason to pay way more for the viessmann silver model with the Viesmann gun?

Thanks
jimc

Mike Kraft

what I can say.............

The "System 2000" is a low mass boiler.It has a HX that spirals around.........kind of like a big yodel.When it is hit with return water and cools to low,its aquastat then shuts down circulation.The HX need to be serviced from the rear.To do this you need to pull the boiler away from obstruction considerably(not sure what they want).I also have only seen the 2000 installed with a draft inducer fan.Its DHW recovery is done via a plate HX.They claim to allow all stand-by heat is dumped in the DHW tank and this saves $$.

The Bi-Ferral now is a boiler of a different color.This is a high mass boiler.The design of the HX and chamber is unique and slick.The water side of the HX is never in the flame.The chamber is a SS "sleeve" which controls the heat from the burner.Its design is high tech but allows the heat to flow around the HX.This allows virtually any return temp to circulate through the HX and condensation is avoided because of the combustion chamber design.

I am not trained for either of these boilers.Info I am giving you is learned from reading and mostly here.I install Buderus.Although a feel that your pick of equipment is secondary to what you need and how it is designed.To buy the "older Bi-Ferral" and getting a good price I would lean that way.But if Burhnam served you well you certainly could do a primary/secondary design with state of the art Tekmar controls.

Hope I help............cheese

Paul Pollets

Performance

The Viessmann will give you superior performance with the chassis burner and the SS tank. The Vitotronic 200 is slightly easier to use than the Trimatic, and has better display and diagnostic graphics. It also wires faster with true "plug & play". Aside than the computer, the model hasn't changed other than by color. I don't recommend the HX DHW approach. The Viessmann tanks have extremely low standby losses. Why reinvent the wheel? I'd recommend you get some training at the Surrey BC school, if you haven't installed the machines. The chassis burner is the easiest to set up of any burner I've used.

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heatboy

Having intimate knowledge of both............

and seeing their operation over the years, I still offer the Viessmann line. ;-) You are comparing apples and oranges.........Mercedes and Saturn..........Rolex and Timex.......Do they all work? Sure, but sometimes it's the ride!

hb

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Henry_4

well stated

Michael B

Viessmann 5 System 2000 - 0


It looks like all the votes are in and the winner and still champion is Viessmann.

Unknown

which boiler?

I would make my decision only after knowing what type of system the boiler is supplying. Radiators, baseboard, radiant, etc. I have been very pleased with the EK for baseboard and hot water coils. If radiant is being used I would install a buffer tank. I have not used the Viessmann. But have used the Buderus and been very pleased.

John@Reliable

What type of boiler?

Which Burnham do you have? if V-1 cast take your time that boiler has 10+ yrs left in it , if its been taken care of.

GW

Viessmann

The German unit is in a different world. It would have been nice if you would have indicated what the distribution system is... baseboard? Radiators?

the Trimatic control operates the orange boiler, and the Vitotronic operates the new silver line. You may want to decide to install the burner based on what the installer can service. I have over a $1000 in Viessmann burner parts in the next room over, so I choose to install Viessmanns burner No, I haven't even opened the "suit case" yet, incase you're wondering. But it's nice to know my customers will never go without heat (unless they call when I'm at the wet-head gathering!). The Viessmann burners are extremely reliable.

To learn more about Viesmann, click on www.wilsonph.com

Good luck!

Gary

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Bill NTSG

From ..... BN

..... An oil burner dude persective, you want to keep the burner running longer for better efficiency. With the system 2000 you go from cold start to [high limit] least efficient in 90 seconds. With the high mass Viessmann you have longer "on" time and even longer "off" time. With the viessmann and the trimatic [in my climate] it never reaches high limit. Less cycling equals less wear and tear on motors , pumps , ignitors, electrodes etc. The viessmann indirect is a good match for the trimatic control. The coil or heat exchanger has a lot of surface area for good heat transfer. You can make 53 gallons of 125-130° water with 145° boiler water and the trimatic controls the DHW. It purges heat from the boiler into the water. You would never regret buying the Viessmann.I have changed out several leaking system 2000 dhw storage tanks. I have heard of plugged up flat plate exchangers. I have never seen a leaking viessmann indirect. I have installed more than a dozen of them.

Jim Cheydleur

Existing Boiler Burnham VP 3W

The existing boiler is an oil fired Burnham VP 3W. I've lived in the house 16 yrs; house is 26 yrs. old - to the best of my knowledge the boiler & gun are original (i.e. 26 y.o.). During my tenure the boiler has had an annual tuneup. Used to have a stack robber (heat recovery device) just above the boiler; this got removed ~ 2 yrs ago due in part to excessive ash buildup on the top of the boiler.

Jim Cheydleur

Viessman retrofit- sleeve the chimney?

If I go with the EK2000 my boiler tech has definitely indicated that he would want to sleeve my existing 8" metalbestos (all interior except top 3') chimney.

The other installer (promoting the Viessmann) says that he doesn't think this will be needed for the Viessmann since the chimney is straight up and all in warm space (no passage through a cold attic nor is it strapped on the outside of the house.) This certainly isn't the turning point on the decision btw the EK2000 and the Viessmann but it could be an additional expense that I'd prefer to know going in. Also don't want to push up operating temps (and presumably lose efficiency) to "solve" this problem.
Remembering that we have some fairly cold outdoor temps (lots of -20F and sometimes colder) what would those of you who have retro fitted a Viessmann say about the need to sleeve the chimney, presumably to prevent condensation problems?
thanks again,

Bill NTSG

That VP

.... was an excellent boiler. The 1725 rpm burner wasn't so great. If that boiler is still in decent shape I would put a modern flame retention burner on it and see how it works out. You should get good combustion efficiency , 83-84%. A carlin , Beckett, or Riello will bolt up with a little effort. When ever I run across an old American Standard VP that is being changed out because "it's old" I hang on to it. Burnham bought out Am. Std. in the late 60's- early 70's and the VP became the V-1. The new V-8 looks very similar to the V-P [IMO]

Bill NTSG

Stack Temp.

With the Viessmann you can "tailor" your stack temp with out losing a great deal of efficiency. Also the longer run time would have an advantage over the short cycles of the EK 2000. Viessmann has a small tool where you core holes in the end of the combustion chamber to raise temp of flue gas.[you can always seal it with furnace cement later]. Buderus has baffles that you remove to raise temp to suit your needs. I like Viessmann and have installed quite a few [ I have one at home] but if your boiler is still in good shape I would consider retro fitting it. I have a couple of them on their second career so to speak. I rescued one 13 years ago and it is still running in my brothers old house.

heatboy

Jim, at some point..............

the chimney will need re-lining. When? Hard to tell. Ideally, and I always state so in my agreement, it should coincide with the upgrade. Depending on the chimney itself, i.e., exposure, height, shape in general, it may last quite a few years. I have Vitolas plugged into masonry chimneys that have lasted for 7+ years now. Please, don't be confused, it is not a good idea. Even though there is not a huge amount of condensate with #2, what condensate is present, is very corrosive due to it's sulfur base.

hb

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Steve Eayrs

Is the Ek vs. Veissmann debate.....

Still going on. If so I couldn't resist to get involved. I have installed close to 200 Ek boilers, and a few Veissman, and would say they both are great....when used right. The Ek boiler are great on baseboard/dhw jobs, and the "Frontier" model opens on the front for cleaning. So you can install it closer to the wall. (in responce to someone who said you needed clearances in the back). Veissmann makes a great boiler, for a bigger price, and you will not see a difference between the fuel cunsumption, between the two. I have found Veissmann (and Buderus) to work great on higher mass systems, ro radiant systems, w/ good controls, (Veissman or Tekmar, etc.)
Either of them will inprove your overall efficiency by at least 20%, over your old boiler (even with a new burner).
I would have to say that whatever you do, don't keep the existing boiler. Their is a big difference between the overall efficiency of your old boiler and that of the new. You need to figure in the standby stack loss, the residual heat loss, etc., along with the AFUE rating.
I too live in Alaska, and have found that some from elsewhere do not see such great savings, since evidently heating is not as big a dollar factor in their lives, as here. You've got great support there in Fairbanks from Phil Louden, at Artic Technical on the EK, and I know you also have folks up there who are doing great with Veissmann. I wold recommend going with one of them.

Sincerely, Steve Eayrs

Jim Cheydleur

Sleeve the chimney for smaller diameter

Guess I wasn't 100% clear. Sleeving the chimney was not because of present or future deterioration of the existing metalbestos. Rather, it would be to reduce the interior diameter of the existing chimney to assure that the flue gasses are getting pushed out the top at a warm enough temp to preclude significant condensate in the flue. Nothing wrong with the existing flue.

Henry_4

In any event

on any new install, the chimney sizing should be checked with the new equipment. Do not just assume because the flue was sized right originally that it will be ok for the Viessmann if it goes into reset and starts spitting out a much cooler flue temperature than original parameters. There are multiple ways to do it right, one just cannot be to careful, especially when the system variables change.

Henry_4

Even if the system

is high temp, a tremendous benefit in continuous delivery can be acheived by resetting through the boiler. This is exactly what you get with the Viessmann. If I can get the average yearly temperature in my system down from 200 to say 150 or 160 F, I have effectively reduced my energy demand by 13 - 17%. Diminishing returns must be considered, but savings are savings, and we have not even dicussed pollution and environmental impact.