RPA: Wisconsin Chapter Being Discussed

Mi39ke_2

A discussion list for a proposed Wisconsin RPA Chapter has been created. To join, send a blank email to: RPAWI-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

This list will hopefully keep you informed of any upcoming meetings or current news. Honest and open discussion is welcome and encouraged.

The format includes archives of all discussions, file sharing capabilities, calendar and polling functions, to name a few.

heatboy

Is that............

anywhere near Pennsylvania?

hb

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hr

Thumbs up Mike

for taking the "bull by the horns" Strong chapters and committees would be a great help to the association. There are a handful of new local chapters being formed currently.

Keep in touch with the other chapters for ideas. I understand the Salt Lake chapter has been offering Radiant Basics in small, short sessions for new members.. great idea for newbees and small shops that can't get away for an all day session.

You would be a perfect RPA trainer.. interested?


hot rod
hot rod

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Mi39ke_2

Pennsyvness

You Penn-sy people are always trying to mess with the great state of Wisconsin! [big grin]

The most ubiquitous TV commercial in Wisconsin of late is one wherein Pennsylvania is pictured as the land of milk and honey...where you can buy a palatial mansion for half the price of one anywhere else! Is it true, Jeffrey? Can we all be recruited and become proud and rich Penn-sy People?! -- Mi39ke

heatboy

Well, not everyone is invited, but.............

there is ALWAYS room for you , Mi39ke. Am I going to see you at any of the events this year?

hb

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Mi39ke_2

Thanks hr, but...

I'm not the mover and shaker of this particular movement.

As always, a holy trade-trinity is involved...One MAN REP, One VENDOR and One CONTRACTOR. Gary Jansen, along with Kevin at Fluid Handling and Darren of Auer Steel are pushing things forward. They be the men. I'm only jump-starting things a bit.

Thanks for the ideas, I think the guys are in touch with a couple chapters, for sure.

Heck, maybe we should just go and start a discussion list for all the chapters to share ideas? The RPA web site isn't getting used for that purpose, as far as I can see.

Thanks also for the trainer idea, but truth be told, I'm not much of a speaker, I think. It will take years for me to develop the coordination of mouth-to-brain that is required. My mouth is always a few minutes behind the brain, I'm afraid. -- Mi39ke

Mi39ke_2

I wish, I wish...

to go to Ish...people keep asking me to go, but I don't think time will let me.

I probably won't see you anywhere this year. And California is a long drive...don't want to take the train again, and hate flying. Damn...that leaves boats...a cruise through the great lakes and around the country? Probably ain't gonna happen.

Maybe a weird road trip? Magic bus? Rental type, picking up hydronic dudes from across the country on the way to next year's REX? Just dreaming/tripping out loud, mind you. [g]

heatboy

Differences of opinion

If one was going to head up a local chapter for the RPA, would he/she have to accept all contractors who wanted in as the RPA itself does? What if one or more of the local contractors wants to be involved, but there are issues with his/her/their installation practices? That has been the major roadblock for me in seriously becoming involved in starting a local chapter. I hold strong opinions(g) on how radiant should and should not be done. I'm not looking to add any more aggevating circumstances to my life. Principal #10, the only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.

heatboy

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Mike Kraft

heatboy,seperating the wheat from the chaff

Your work is designed to run at the lowest temperature that is possible for that give moment of time.You have persevered
to a standard that will allow nothing but your way.Your jobs are works of art.

But you know that any organization must create a standard that is a bit broader.Systems are abused and there are many many installs that dont serve because of haphazard planning.This may or may not be reasons that you deem how radiant should be done.

If practices that you hold irresponsible in design stradegy actually do work and fit RPA criteria in their design guide then so it be.You of all of the contractors in our NE PA area would be a fine canidate and strong voice as a member to run a chapter.But you just gotta get over it dude (G).Your practices are yours............not the industries!

Your pal..........cheese

Mi39ke_2

Shoulda, woulda, coulda...

I don't know. I want to see how the process evolves and see how the people shape the direction.

You shouldn't be able to stop people from joining, but I have no doubt you can make rules and policies that will make integrity-challenged folks think twice about associating with you.

Extreme ethics...spell it out in advance, write it down and make it a part of the bylaws. If people break the rules they agreed upon, it shouldn't be hard to see them hit the road, IMO.

Heck, some clubs charge thousands of dollars for memberships. This is a requirement of the club and some people can't meet that requirement...does a person have the right to sue an exclusive club that charges a lot of money, because they can no longer join (meet the requirements) of that club? Well...I'm sure we have enough lawyers to want to take on that case as well! [g]

How about changing the name and nature of the chapter to: "Low temp, low energy use, highly healthy chapter of the RPA"? All members are required to design within a maximum water temp range, and meet energy usage and healthy filtering and ventilation requirements? And sport loud jackets. [g]

Then...you just have to the raise the dues to cover all the memberships that you have lost. A good thing, no doubt! [g]

Can't kick anyone out or not let them in, if you don't have the rules in place to do the job...just an opinion.

hr

Would you like that job hb?

The godlike position of deciding just who is worthy. How many of your local competitors would be "perfect" enough I wonder. Hmm... a chapter of one!

What about manufactures that don't do it your way? Wouldn't it in fact be possible to train someone of lesser experience than you to come up to par. Not if they never have an "up to bat" We all improve our skills by learning from the best. In your picture of a "perfect by birth association" this could never happen.

Heck you could probably apply at Southwest Airlines and make the tough calls for them, at the ticket counter, also

I suppose if in fact an organization was set up with bylaws allowing only the elite in your idea might fly, it may be a small club, however Give it a try

Check with Dan Foley or other ACCA members to see how they made out with the exclusitivity attempt. See how many dollars they spent fighting a losing battle.

I think John Halls pub followed that story also. Better have deep "legal fee" pockets and keep Johnnie Cochrans' number handy if you chose to walk this path

hot rod

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heatboy

That's my point, I think.

> The godlike position of deciding just who is

> worthy. How many of your local competitors would

> be "perfect" enough I wonder. Hmm... a chapter

> of one!

>

> What about manufactures that don't do

> it your way? Wouldn't it in fact be possible to

> train someone of lesser experience than you to

> come up to par. Not if they never have an "up to

> bat" We all improve our skills by learning from

> the best. In your picture of a "perfect by birth

> association" this could never happen.

>

> Heck you

> could probably apply at Southwest Airlines and

> make the tough calls for them, at the ticket

> counter, also

>

> I suppose if in fact an

> organization was set up with bylaws allowing only

> the elite in your idea might fly, it may be a

> small club, however Give it a try

>

> Check

> with Dan Foley or other ACCA members to see how

> they made out with the exclusitivity attempt.

> See how many dollars they spent fighting a losing

> battle.

>

> I think John Halls pub followed that

> story also. Better have deep "legal fee" pockets

> and keep Johnnie Cochrans' number handy if you

> chose to walk this path

>

> hot rod

>

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> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,

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heatboy

Devil's Advocate.

I was just trying to point out how difficult that position could be if one has a narrow view of things. I will admit, I couldn't do it for exactly that reason. While I practice diplomacy, being political is something that is, thankfully, not in my nature. Being political and attempting to appease all does very little to enhance any organization and undoubtedly creates more issues than it resolves, in my rather myopic opinion. You see, I do this for the benefit of myself and my clients, not for the good of the RPA or the "industry" and make no apologies for it. Unfortunately, or fortunately (g), I would bring that same attitude to any position I would occupy.

hb

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Dan Foley1

Heatboy....

I have seen your work and it is among the best I have ever seen. I admire you for your fervent commitment to your beliefs and convictions. If every installation looked like yours we would have no problems in this industry. Unfortunately this is not the case.

As Hot Rod pointed out, if the requirements to join an organization were to your standards you may end up with an organization with one member - you! I have pictures of boilers I installed many years ago where there was no air separator, no isolation valves, no low water cut-off safety, and the pump pointed towards the boiler. Why? Because that is what I knew and that is what I was taught. Now with the benefit of training, seminars, conferences, self education and 15+ years field experience I know better. Fifteen years ago, could I get into your organization?

We are in the process of starting a Northern Virginia/ D.C. chapter of the RPA. The organizing committee consists of Bill Melvin of Rehau, Jeff Riley of Thos. Somerville Co., Jack Guilfoyle of Cummins-Wagner and myself. We have had many discussions along the lines of Heatboy's concerns about who can join. We decided we would allow anyone who is interested in radiant heat to join. We will require contractors to be licensed in their jurisdiction and show proper liability and workmans comp. insurance.

We will welcome those who are less than competent or new to the radiant industry. What better way to train them on the proper design and installation techniques? What better way to introduce them to our industry's treasures such as the REX show, Dan H. and John Siegenthaler? We will also promote the RPA certification exam as a yardstick to measure basic competence. I have taken the exam. It is difficult. It does need some tweaking. But it is a fair test and the 80% passing grade means that you are not going to slide by if you are not prepared and have not done your homework.

Heatboy, I would love to see you more active and involved in the RPA. We need people of your caliber. Start a PA chapter and help your fellow contractors attain the knowledge to join you at the top. Your friend, -DF

heatboy

Dan

Thanks for the nice words about my work. Coming from you, someone I look up to when it comes to knowledge and quality work, means miles to me.

I too, have many early jobs that are not what they would be now and quite possibly are land mines waiting to go off (g). We are always, or should be, evolving as contractors and people. Having seen work from you and some of the other artists here, I know there is no end to improvement. Very humbling, it is.

I suppose with some anger management(g), I could be involved on a local level. Maybe?

On another note, I am working on a deal with a wholesaler to stock the 8' plates so we don't have to buy in such bulk to get the pricing we need. Interested?

hb



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Earthfire

Thermofin

Hey, HeatBoy this is from a recent e-mail from Dale Pickard at thermofin. "Steve Wieland (wheels) at AVCO Supply in Levitown PA has placed some large orders for 1/2" CFin and is acting as a master distributor" Maybe he can be of some help with the availability and pricing Blues. As for the chapter thing. Shared knowledge is the best way to improve your own skills and the skills of those around you. Although I am the only one in the RSES chapter that I belong to that makes a habit of dealing with or thinking about groundsource and radiant , the training offered by RSES and the peer discussions have provided me and others a forum for learning and some of my ideas have been reinforced, modified or even ridiculed and crushed, but it has always been an eyeopenning experience. The only way that I can get better at what I do is by listening and learning. And people tell me" YOU HAVE AN ATTITUDE PROBLEM", I have no Idea where that comes from.!!!! Right!! Chapter politics and logistics like you said can be a MINEFIELD , but just like every person that works around AC or refrigeration doesn't belong to RSES, the ones that belong and showup at the meetings are the people that even if they are not accepting of every idea are saying "I'm listening SHOW ME." I think that there are enough wet heads in the PennJersey area that are Willing and Want to listen learn and share that a chapter should be viable. And ABEaston area is kind of centrally located transportation wise. Philly, Scranton,North Jersey, Reading and I think even York are, in a 70 + or - mile radius . Any suppliers down there that might help out with afterhours meeting space one night a month or so?

Mi39ke_2

Certified...or stamped

and ready to start doing damage...that is the question.

My problem with RPA certification is it doesn't take things far enough.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't someone simply audit the course, read the books and then take the test? A sharp person might be able to become certified without ever having picked up a wrench, soldered a joint or designed a succssful system. Imagine what could happen next! Scary.

The next step of certification (maybe all the chapters can add this to their qualifications) would be proof of competent construction and design methods. Since the chapters are local, it shouldn't be much of a problem to visit some job sites and talk to some homeowners, IMO.

Does this make sense?

Mi39ke (I got my accredited installer status from IGSHPA without having installed a system. This is not saying I have brain power, it is saying that they have an open-book test, which is simply designed to make sure you can find all the answers in the books when you need them. This works for them, obviously, but doesn't necessarily protect the public, IMO.)

hr

Good points Mike

I like the idea of installers being required to show proof of experience. I had to do this for my master plumbing, mechanical and gas fitter license. I had to get letters from towns and cities, on their letter head, where I had previously worked to be allowed to take a test.(Block Test)

Keep in mind local chapters are bound by the RPA bylaws. They cannot add additional requirements without an amendment to the bylaws as I read them.

RPA members may in person, or by mail request a copy of the Bylaws, according to the Bylaws. They cover in detail what is required to start a chapter. Larry or Judy can help along these lines also.

The RPA is a Non Profit Mutal Benefit Corporation. We are bound by the laws of Non Profit Corp Act and the FTC.

hot rod

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Mi39ke_2

horse to water...thirsty me

Thanks much for the input, hr. I really appreciate it. I will order me a copy of these bylaws ASAP. Sounds interesting, intriguing, and downright tenderly legal!

They probably won't let you copy it or post it anywhere as well! I love the subversive texts!!!! [howl, teeth whitened and cultured]

Regards,

Mi39ke

Judy Saffell - Program Manager RPA

RPA Chapters

If anyone has any questions or comments on RPA local Chapters, please contact me via email or the RPA website RAD NET bulletin board. A yahoo group does not constitute an RPA chapter. I would be glad to give you all the facts.
Judy Saffell
Program Manager
Radiant Panel Association

Mi39ke_2

RPA

Thanks, Judy.

I guess I didn't explain things properly. Sorry. Let me clariry. The Yahoo Group was formed to discuss and possibly organize like-minded folks who would be interested in a Chapter. It is not to be confused with a Chapter. I understand you have to have a charter and such for that to happen. Live meetings are great, but all data needs to be discussed in order to find out what is viable before you form a chapter. IMO.

Examples:

What to charge for dues?
What area might the chapter cover?
What servvices will be provided?

Taking advantage of modern technology to gather people and get more potential duespayers is important as well.

Check your email, I haven't heard back from you regarding the Bylaws, as of yet. If I have to send a letter via USPS, I will get on it.

Check our Bulletin Board, as I posted there as well. As of last night, no one was much interested in the possible formation of a Wisconsin chapter or discussing it at the RPA site.

Thanks for all your help.

Mi39ke, a well satisfied RPA National Member

Mi39ke_2

Judy, goddess of bylaws

Thanks to Judy@RPA for sending a PDF file of the RPA Bylaws.

I write this to not only inform people of her diligence, but to encourage people to ask for the Bylaws or other information from the RPA if they are in need. They (the RPA), are there to help us: the membership.

Fun, fun, fun,

Mike