What is your comfort level (PAH)

Dave Yates (PAH)

the only way a potential customer can afford radiant comfort is if we allow them to do a great deal of the work laying the Quik-Trak and installing the tubing, along with cutting holes for A/C registers, etc... Close to 4K sq ft on this one. Yes , we're still dancing the price tune & it's the same job. They've been to five other contractors and don't like what they've seen & heard in spite of their pricing being 1/2 that of ours. I've gotta admire their tenacity & quite frankly, the fine tuning of every component, nut, bolt & screw has been a good exercise for me. More steps towards compartmentalizing the bid components, which makes turn around time shorter on the next project.

What's been your experiences with turning over some of the work?

Warranty issues?

Nightmare on Elm Street in the making???

What's been the bigest problems you've faced, if any?

Would you do it again?

Sorry Dan, I can't wait till we get to the roundtables to kick this one around. If anyone is hesitant to reply publicly, give me a shout via e-mail.

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Dan Peel

Another tool

If the customer is game and the job depends on price reduction why not? I like to supply the equipment and layouts but even that isn't sacred. With products like warm board there is alwauys a large amount of time involved in installation requiring more brawn than brain. The way I approach it is this - if i'm required on your job you pay me - if i'm on someone elses job they pay me. Controls and commissioning I look after regardless. Most owner/builders can save up to 1/3 of the labour they would otherwise pay me and I get to do twice as many jobs - funny that. Enjoy.....Dan

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hr

Sweat equity

I have had good luck with owner participation. Generally it is limited to tube installation. I did have one customer several years ago drill, tube and plate the entire job. Did a fine job, very neat. Took awhile, but he wasn't in a hurry.

You somehow have to gauge their expertise level. On some jobs I use the owner as an apprentice working with me and deduct an hourly labor rate, agreed upon upfront, from the bottom line on the bid at the end.

This assures the work is done properly. A good way to learn everything you every wanted to know and some you didn't about your customer. It's been fun on every occasion. Lay out the ground rules and limits before you turn them loose by themselves I would advise.

Go ahead give it a try If you are worried about insurance, payroll hassle, etc hire them thru a temp service!

hot rod

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Mark Hunt

Quite honestly

I haven't done it often but I can say that I have never had a bad experience with it.

Most recently we were awarded a very nice job from someone that was referred to us by someone we designed a system for. The gentleman is very mechanically inclined and did exactly what we told him to do. He paid us for the design and for each trip we made to the site.

The system works great and he was so impressed that he sent a friend of his our way and now he is our customer.

We will be doing all of the installation on this job and as an added bonus we were also given the plumbing contract!!

I would play it by ear and use your best judgement. If the home owner would like to feel that they had something more to do with THEIR comfort other than paying for it and they are able, why not?

I would be VERY clear in the wording of the agreement.

JMHO

Mark H

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Steve Ebels

HO help

I don't have a problem with it. Part of the trick is sizing up your customer. Is he able to do the work physically? Does he have the mechanical aptitude? Can he do it in a time frame that won't destroy your schedule? Make sure that each party knows what their responsibility isso you don't get into "I never said.... Yes you did"type of deal. Also, cover the liability issue with him. I've found that the more forthright and up front I am with the HO the better the relationship is on jobs like the one you have.

Interview him kind of like you would a prospective employee Dave. Let him know what to expect and what you expect from him. If he agrees to all, go for it. Just dot all the I's and cross all the T's.

I'm presently in the middle of one like that myself. We sold the materials and will furnish the labor for the boiler install. The HO is installing 700 RTI plates and the tubing in the crawl space along with other misc. piping. He's definitely up to the task. He was head of the engineering team at GM that packaged the ONSTAR equipment into GM's cars. A real sharp cookie. He's for sure not going to have any problem with the wiring.



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Floyd

Can't say much...

that hasn't already been said!! I think it can work, but the customer,s attitude and experience are the keys. I have seen some jobs done by customers that have had so much time out into them that there is no way that I could ever afford to change for that kind of work! I am going to look at a job tomorrow that was sold to the customer as a package with an outdoor woodboiler!! Can't wait to see what I'm in for on this one!!! The guy asked me to come a solder the copper, he doesn't know how to solder but he thinks he can install the tubing!!
The job is only a mile up the road, so I have to at least take a look at it and see what's up!!! He did tell me that he has oxygen barrier tubing and he was told to do a staple up. Didn't know if he had mixing valves or not!!! Yikes!! I can just see that pex after that stove has a run-a-way fire in it!!!
Says he has a stove that is a closed system.

Good luck!! I would play it by ear, you may get to do more of the work than you think, once the reality of the work involved and the time constraints start to dawn on this guy.

Can't wait to see what I've got tomorrow myself!!!

Floyd

PJO

A \"HO\" point of view...

Dave,
I did this in my home, and like you stated it was the only way I could afford what I wanted. I did end up designing the whole thing as well (too bad The Wall wasn't around)...tube layout, boiler selection, manifolds, etc, and did some whacky stuff that actually works pretty well :-) If you'd like, I would discuss it (for example, I split the return and haven't seen that anywhere - this was before my "Primary/Secondary" education)...although that's for a different thread.
The guys I hired did most of the pipe sweating (I usually was the helper because my sweats are ugly and take too long), the A/C and boiler hook-ups and testing, and a large portion of the A/C ductwork. They where not held responsible for any warranty issues, and one tech still visits me each year for the tune-up.
While I did things different than most people, it could not have been done this way without my own 700 hours of labor over a five month period, and that is one thing that (as stated) helps people acquire this wonderful form of heat in their home.
Dave, with your fine reputation it's no wonder the people want you there despite lower bids...be careful, and also be proud. This type of thing will be more prevalent in the future, and it's great to see guys like Hot Rod and other wallies embrace this. It will only get more radiant to the masses IMHO, and that is a good thing...certainly better than the HO doing the "dangerous" stuff, and also the low bidder screwing it all up and giving radiant a bad name.
Take care, PJO