Radiant Wall Stuff (ME)

Mark Eatherton1

Here's my newest assistant running the router, grooving the studs getting it ready for the heat transfer plates. His name is John. He's 16. I'm hoping I can convince him that hydronics is a better job than an auto mechanic...

<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=88&Step=30">To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"</A>

Mark Eatherton1

Heat Transfer panels installed

Here's a picture of one of the panels, actually two of them, back to back, installed. John did all this work by himself, including the insulation. We preinsulated this wall only due to limited access after the fact. All other walls are to be insulated by HFH sub contractors using Icynene (SP?) insulation.

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Mark Eatherton1

Dining room heater

Here's a shot of the dining room panel. It's a part of a counter/eating bar located between the kitchen and the dining area. I know where I'd be sitting when it gets cold outside...

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Mark Eatherton1

Living room panel

You can hang a picture anywhere you want, provided the nail is not less than 66" off the floor Mr Smith. Better yet, use nailless picture hanging technology!!

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Mark Eatherton1

Good Exposure

Here's the sign that sits in front of the home. Unfortunatley, they forgot to include the Rocky Mountain Chapter of the RPA as the primary donor. We'll get press coverage and proper attention then. I've never had so many people come on to a job with intelligent questions as I'm getting on this job. It seems that many of the employees of NREL are working on this project and are VERY interested in the potentials. Here's the signage and a shot of some of the volunteers pounding nails.

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Mark Eatherton1

People power.

Here's what makes this whole program work. People volunteering to donate their time to help in the construction of the home. This is one of the many things that makes this country of our such a great place to live. Enjoy your freedom and independence. It's a very precious thing.

Tomorrow, my volunteers comes in and strings tube and pounds nail gards. I'll send more pictures tomorrow.

Thanks to all the people who have volunteered their personal time!!

ME

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Unknown

Say...

Hi Mark, are you doing RFH as well as the wall panels? Glad to see you're bringing in new stock!
Paul

hr

Atta boy, Mark

What a great way to help the community. We plumbed the first blitz build (24 hour) Habitat Home in Utah years ago. We had a 1 hour window to get in and out. The slab and sub rough was completed ahead of the build. It was a great experience, lots of fun and laughs.

I'd have a good heart to heart chat with the sheet rockers if I were you

hot rod

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Sal Santamaura1

Mark, does radiant wall need the same

couple of inch air gap between panel and insulation that radiant floor does? I ask because Icynene expands hugely when sprayed in. They use a hand saw to cut it flush with the studs after it's set up. If Icynene gets sprayed behind panels, it will grow right up to them, perhaps even creating enough pressure to distort or loosen them.

[Deleted User]

Mark, are those plates nailed in or

held in place by the notch?

Dave Yates (PAH)

Way to go!

Nice job ME. We did two HFH timber-framed homes for them a few years back. From a starting point of just the foundations done in advance, we completed the construction and families moved in within 48 hours! What a riotious work space they became as volunteers worked on top of each other. I spent a lot of time racing between the two homes keeping my volunteer crews on task. Very little sleep, but come Sunday morning - the dedication ceremony was well worth the marathon effort.

One of the families remains in the home to this day. The other, a single mother of three, never did move in & went back to her trailor park. Her live-in boyfriend wouldn't let her take "charity".

It was also an interesting study in humanity. The neighborhood was split between those adamantly opposed to having "low income" families in their midst, to those who not only accepted the idea, they got caught up in the build-a-thon excitement and either pitched in where needed or provided us with food/refreshments.

The red-neck plumbing inspector didn't want any HFH folks living in a nice suburb under his watch, so he made life as difficult as possible. At one point, he refused to allow our loop venting (perfectly legal) and tried to put a stop work order on the entire project unless we all agreed to run an exposed vent up through the home from the kitchen sink. No walls & only timbers, so that was not an option. Fortunately a County Commissioner came to the site and offered the inspector two choices (after I provided him with a copy of the code book): pass the work and get off the job site or find yourself unemployed!

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Mark Eatherton1

No gap wanted, required or needed...

Sal, The only time you'd want a gap in insulation would be where you're dealing with suspended tube or staple up applications. This is to take advantage of the convective aspect of that particular heating methodology.

In this case, we don't want or need any convective action on the inside of the wall, therefore, the insulation is pushed up tight against the heat transfer plates to keep all heat being transferred in a conductive mode, as opposed to a convective mode. The icynene insulation is being used in the outside walls only.

The radiant panels are on interior walls to eliminate any non-recoverable back losses. I questioned the placement of the panels, but was re-assured by my friend the energy engineer that on well built well insulated homes, tight homes it doesn't matter whether the heat source is on an internal or external wall. Comfort conditions are the same. This home has no exhorbitant glazed areas, so I'm really not too concerned. I trust his word.

This house will receive numerous awards (as have similar HFH homes) for its' energy efficient construction. This one will be additioanlly enhanced due to the high efficiency physical plant (Munchkin, Thanks Dave Davis!!), the fact that it will have an active solar thermal DHW pre-heat, a non storage direct use PV solar system and every energy efficient construction method known to man kind.

Hope that answers your question Sal.

ME

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Colin

Router guide

Very professional. Do you leave the RTI router jig made up or adjust it for each panel?
Do you get better transfer with the double transfer plates than the extruded or was that just what was furnished?
Thanks !
Colin

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Mark Eatherton1

Radiant Walls only...

The powers that be turned down our offer for radiant floors. Said they were looking for something with repeatabilty, volunteer labor friendly, reasonably priced and highly efficient. Radiant ceilings were considered, but were tossed at the last minute in favor of radiant walls based on my recommendation that the walls would feel more comfortable than would ceilings. Also, as I previously pointed out, the National Renewable Energy Laboratories (NREL) are co-sponsors, and they didn't want radiant floors or ceilings because they were the "typical norm". They wanted to do something different and unique, hence radiant walls.

They originally wanted me to use a sole source (dual use) standard water heater as the hydronic heat source to help keep the costs down. I told them that we could look into that when water heaters had much higher efficiencies than the Munchkin, but that for a demonstration pilot project like this that we should stick with proven applications. When I mentioned legionella, they dropped the subject like a hot potato.

It is my long term hope that someone (are you listening Mike Gordon..) will come out with a reliable, low cost, high efficiency water heater with an immersed coil near the top that could provide copious amounts of 130 degree F water specifically for these applications. Not that I wouldn't LOVE to sell a Munchkin with every job, but if we're ever going to make these systems so that low income people can afford them, I think we're going to have to look towards other means of providing hot water other than expensive boilers.

Just looking into the future use of hydronic radiant panels EVERYWHERE...

ME

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Mark Eatherton1

Plates are held in by screws

After we installed the tubing and pounded in the nail guards, the have plenty of support. I'm not too concerned about oil canning because the system will be continuous circ with outdoor reset, and each room is a zone unto itself controlled by an Oventrop Unibox (Thanks Shamrock Sales!!)

ME

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Mark Eatherton1

Router guide...

I made the RTI router guide up so that it can work on walls that are more than 8 foot long. We only had to knock one nail backer out on one wall in this house, and that was in the bathroom. The primary reason for the guide was to make the installation of the plates a snap. I set it up so that the plates automatically aligned their groves when set into the router grooves. That way you didn't need to concentrate on two things at once, alinging the plate grooves and hitting the studs on center.

The router guide is epoxied where the plates overlap, and is also riveted together. You can't see it from the pictures, but where the ends of the 4 footers meet in the middle, I epoxied 1/2" copper pipe into the channels to keep them aligned and to keep them together. It is a little flimsy, but hey, whad'ya expect for a prototype? The next one will probably have a complete 1/2" copper pipe frame for added rigidity and life expectancy.

I originally had conceived these walls using the single track Wirsbo (Thanks Jackie!!) plates, and didn't realize until I opened the boxes that they had shipped the doubles. I saw no reason to cause mass panick, so I adapted to what Wirsbo had donated, and I think I'd probably do it this way again. It assures a more even surface temperature between tubes.

Hopefully, other manufacturers will see the potential around radiant walls and we'll see more products coming to the market.

ME

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Sal Santamaura1

Sure does, Mark. Thanks!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Temps

About what supply temp at design? Expected panel (wall) surface temp?

Mark Eatherton1

Surface temps

at design condition will be 120 Deg F. I seriously doubt if the panels will ever see that. Each room is controlled by a non electric thermostatic valve (Oventrop Unibox)and the continuous circ mains will be on an outdoor reset. Design condition here in Denver last for less than 2% of the time.

Radiant walls are not new. I'm just trying to get a resurgence in their application.

ME


To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

kevin

controls

Mark, what brand controlare you using for the outdoor reset and contin. circ? Thnks Kevin C.

Mark Eatherton1

Controls...

are proprietary. I can tell you this much, when they hit the market full blast you will LOVE them. Sorry I can't tell you more than that Kevin. If I weren't using the Xperimental controls that I am, I'd use tekmar.

ME

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

kevin

oh well

Thanks any way. I wanted to know so I could put it in my own home. Maybe later.... Kevin C.