power vents - RJ Spomer

RJ Spomer

I have a question. But a few facts that I know.


My wife a I own a four square home built in 1927, approximant 4,000 square ft. It has a very functional converted to natural gas coal fired Hot water Boiler. The Boiler was manufactured by Pierce, Butler and Pierce in Syracuse, NY Model number 215 serial number 21443. The original contractor is still in business but now is selling furnaces not boilers and there does not seem to be anyone with boiler experience in the area. The original chimney is in bad shape. Also it takes up a big share of the space in our new proposed kitchen.



Now the question I would like to replace the chimney with a side wall power venter made by Tjernuld. They will supply all necessary parts to do this conversion, but they need the BTU of the boiler.



Also is this a good way to go? The boiler works very well has not caused us a bit of problems. I do not want to replace it with a new boiler just to get a side vent.



One other question if the boiler must be replaced is there a real savings in gas consumption?





Thanks for your help.

nick z.

power vents.

Gas is not very popular inthese parts so I'm may not be the best to give you advice on this. But it sounds to me like a new boiler wouldn't be a bad idea as yours sound pretty old.From what I ahve seen P.V.s work O.K. on gas but Iwill not install them for oil.Not that there unsafe and they work well. It's just my opion that you can ahve a chimmney repaired or sometimes built for a lil more money and ahve something that will last forever.

ScottMP

power vent

RJ, Please look in to a new boiler. Yours has seen its day and is on borrowed time. It was a coal burner converted to gas ! Get a gas power vented boiler that is designed to do that job. The system will be more effeicent, run properly, and be less prone to repairs and breakdowns. Remember these things has a mind of their own and will stop working at the worst time . We use Tjernlund power venters and they are a good product, but many boiler now come from the factory designed as a power vented system. All factory wired and the boiler is designed to operate with gas. You are spending money now for your rehab, do it once..do it right.

Scott

Steve Ebels

Add-on power ventors

Are something I avoid like the plague. Reliability problems mainly. Noise is another. It's just another mechanical thing to break at the worst possible time. Maybe you could save a little space by removing the old (brick or block?) chimney and going to B-vent?

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ScottMP

Buderus

Steve I know you do alot of Buderus. I had no problem with their power venter. Did you ? I hav'nt had a chance to use the new sealed combustion.

Scott

Steamhead

Is this your boiler? (see image below)

If so, I would have to agree that it has earned its retirement.

These old cast-iron sectional coal boilers had very large flue passages. This was good for coal burning, but horrible for oil or gas, since they let the hot flue gases escape before they had a chance to give off all the heat they were carrying. The result was high stack temperatures and low efficiency.

It's posible to slow the flue gases down by adding baffles to the flue passages (you can use bricks for this) but this should be done by someone familiar with coal-to-gas conversions to ensure that the burner will run properly after the boiler is baffled.

Another problem with old boilers is they were often oversized. The Dead Men did this so the owner would not have to shovel coal into the boiler more than twice a day.

If that were my house, I'd first do a heat loss calculation, then make sure you had enough radiation to heat the house adequately (which you probably do). The net output capacity of your boiler, assuming it's the one pictured below, is 1325 square feet of cast-iron radiation which equals 198,000 BTU per hour. I'll bet you don't need a boiler that big to heat your house.

Your system wll be much more efficient with a new, properly sized boiler. Use the Find a Contractor page of this site to locate someone who can do the job right.


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tim from Reed Wright

power vent

A few remarks, most of the inexpensive power vents are noisy and have a very limited life. If you power vent, look into Exhausto, cast aluminum and engineered for your application, much more expensive but quiet and rugged. 2nd, If I were keeping that boiler I would either repair chimney or go up with a new double wall chimney pipe and leave it gravity vent, much quieter and much more reliable. good luck

Dale

BTU input

Many many thousands of old boilers have been converted to nat gas, like yours most are still working. With nat gas the btu input is easy. Use the gas meter to find the input. The test dials of the meter are very accurate. Run the boiler for a minute and this gives you the input. Call the gas company and ask them how many btu per cubic foot the gas is, it's usually close to 1000. Look at the test dials on the meter ( the test dials are the ones near the bottom of the index that dont have the 0 through 9 numbers on them) the small one is 1/4 or 1/2 foot you may have a 1 foot test dial. You figure the gas flow rate and then multiply the flow rate by the btu per cubic foot. The formula is Gas Flow rate = cubic feet per revolution x 3600 seconds per hour divided by time of one revolution in seconds.
For example if a one foot test dial took 45 seconds for one revolution you have 1cubic foot X 3600 / 45 seconds = 80 cubic feet at 1000btu/cubic foot = 80,000 btu input . If you had a half foot test dial and it took 30 seconds for a complete revolution then it't .5 X 3600 / 30 for 60 cubic feet or 60,000 btu input. If you have a gas water heater which you should to save real money there's a input nameplate with btu input, like 40,000 test yourself on the water heater to get close to that input before you do the boiler. As to whether to put in a side vent I'm sure I would. Get rid of the old chimney that's in need of repair. The new boiler is another issue. Look at your gas bill during the summer months, subtract that from the winter to get boiler fuel cost. You could save 20 to 40 % on monthly fuel. I always like to be conservative on the benefit and liberal on the replacement cost. Find out what a side vent would cost and then what a new boiler would cost and do the math. If you were a business that watches cash flow and the payback was more than a year you wouldn't do it. Most boilers get replaced when they fail because people do the cash flow and payback math. One more thing, there is an art to setting up a conversion burner, very very often the flue outlet was reduced in size with a sheet metal gillotine to lessen over fire draft and get the most effeciency, I would find a contractor or someone at the utility if they do service work to check the CO2 read on the conversion burner.

RJ Spomer

Thanks to all!!!

I would like to thank all you that responded and also to Dan who replied to my email.

I decided to go with the Tjernuld unit my cost is 500.00. This does not included B vent and fittings.

Below is my reasoning.

First of all let me clear up a few things.The boiler was converted to gas many years ago and they used fire brick to help baffles as a few of you mention.

The heating season here in Memphis is barely five months. Total heating cost is 750.00. Lets say I could save 50% (no chance but lets use that for figures) A new installed boiler cost me 7000.00 at a savings of 375. per year it would take me over 18 years to pay it off.

It was said of a new unit "The system will be more efficient, run properly, and be less prone to repairs and breakdowns" We have lived hear six years and have not had one problem. I feel that it is reliable. If it fails I'm only out the cost of the sidewall unit.

I looked into the Exhausto great unit but a little over kill for this application. If I am going to spend that kind of money I will replace the boiler with a High efficient boiler and water heater.

As far as repairing the chimney or running 30 plus feet of 10" B vent again I would replace the boiler.

When it comes time to replace this unit do any of you want to come to Memphis?

We do have some great ribs.

Thanks again RJ

RJ Spomer

Yes that's my boiler

The conversion was several years ago I would say 1940's. They did use brick and it works great.

Thanks RJ

RJ Spomer

Thanks Dale

Some very good points and I have taking them into consideration. The money just doesn't make a new boiler for the sake of new and side vent work.

Steamhead

Memphis!

I went thru there a few weeks ago- hope the boiler holds out until they finish rebuilding I-40 :-0

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David Sutton

hiya, found a old audels book

it was printed in 1943, its 2 " thick about 5x7 its all about modern home heating and air conditioning lots of old charts and ( new fittings ) parts list love it i'll have to photo the top and e- mail it to you.... David

John@Reliable

If it was going to cost $7000.00 to replace that system I need to move there, Good luck with your choice

Mark Hunt

Buderus power vented Mark H

As Steve said the noise is a BIG issue with power vents.

I've installed afew G124x/DI units and they were noisy.

Haven't tried one of the sealed units yet either, but it's got to be quieter than the power vent.

Of course the Munchkin is VERY quiet.

Mark H

Steve Ebels

Buderus

Scott, I was speaking of mechanical problems with aftermarket type power vents mainly. As far as mechanical problems with Buderus, I haven't had any failures on their equipment except one Honeywell A-stat a couple years ago. Their stuff has performed flawlessly for me. Their power ventor however, doesn't belong on a piece of equipment of their caliber. They're way to noisy. I haven't installed any of their sealed comb. units yet. I don't think the distributor here in Mich even has them in stock yet. They told me the other day that I was the only account they had up north that was using any Buderus equipment at all. Sad that no-one else is taking the time to learn different ways to do things and about better products.

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