Some very real questions from a homeowner - DVW

David Van Wickler_3

This is a good question from a HO.

He contracted the builder to install a 4,000 sq.ft. above floor project and then tried to find a contractor to install the mechanicals.

The system is all remote manifolds and either zone valves on the mainfold circuit or line zone valves for multi-loop zones.

The system is P/S and a 60 gallon buffer, 60gal indirect and a hi-eff low mass boiler.

I designed the system so the mechanical room is as clean as possible and all spagetti is outside this room.

It is lights and 4 pumps. Boiler reset and injection.

The owner will be visiting the site so be honest.




"Does it make sense to put an itemized list of all parts, including pumps, zone valves, flowmeters, expansion tanks, ball valves, air eliminators, etc.? This would assist in making an apples to apples comparison between what the plumbers are coming back with?

So far, we've gotten two quotes, the first of which blew me away in terms of cost, and the second is just wincingly painful.

If someone had told me from the beginning that it would cost $60-75K to do the radiant and heat source for this house, we most probably wouldn't have gone that route. Is it my imagination, or does this seem remarkably expensive?

I also ask you to consider some options that could bring the price down once we more or less decide on the plumber."

David Van Wickler_3

What I told him.

No, each contractor, based on their volume of work, will get different discounts. These discounts are important because it builds a little fudge into their quote. If they are short on something it's in there. Most contractors are going to give you time and material quotes. But the material will be lumped. And the time may have a "not to exceed" value. If they complete it in less time, good for them. If they don't, well then better luck next time.

What is too expensive? Overhead and profit expectations are unknown to you and I. Can't answer that one.

It's more expensive to fix it if not installed correctly.

David Van Wickler_3

And another thing to discuss

Good questions - radiant is typically 3-6X more than hot air and 2-3X more than a good hot water system. Personally I would not have an entire home of radiant - even tho' I'm one of them wt heads. Why? It's too expensive for my budget!! I would have done all the tile areas and the family room. The garage too if I was a weekend mechanic. And that's it. My wife survives in every room. She loves the sunroom in the winter and the bathrooms. but the bedroom? Nope. The kids bedrooms? Nope. How many sq.ft. is the home again? consider 4,000 for an example. I would charge about 54,000 installed.

The numbers you are getting are the kind I would expect - It's a big system - why? it has 14 zones. Most contractors would panic at the size of this system. This is why I tried to condense the system requirements.

Save a boat load of money by installing a Buderus gas boiler. This will eliminate the primary secondary. Go with a mixing valve control with three way slave zone and cut the controls in half. No flow meters required at 240 a pop. Thermostats are still the Wirsbo style radiant type. No budge on that.

Zone valves are still the way to go - it reduces the amount of piping and pumping and labor. The wiring is all low voltage and very straight forward - I could wire it in a weekend.

What are the prices you've been given - this is confidential of course. These plumbers are experts and in this field you will get what you pay for. I can promise my back account on that. To be a really good installer and more importantly a good fitter and electrician takes time and many courses in proper methodology. I have trained hundreds of mechanics and you would be amazed what you find out they have been doing all these years.

Dave Yates (PAH)

unrealistic expectations PAH

David,

That reminds me of the HO we're trying to work with. Unfortunately, he developed a budget based upon a very low and unrealistic number (see post below - 18K for two A/C systems and 2,100 sq ft rad). That contractor took a hike just when it was time to begin the HVAC installation. He wants our package, but at the original pricing! No can do.

He wanted my design criteria, but I'm not giving them up (never have before & now's not the time to start) for liability reasons. I don't have faith in his being able to determine another contractor's ability to take that information, install the system and set it up properly. He cooks the hardwood & I get to be in the lawsuit chain of responsibility?

No thanks.

Dave

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heatboy

This is the very reason.........

the potential client will know after out first meeting what the cost of radiant will be. No need to even run the numbers at this point. I find out if and what they have budgeted and they will pretty well know what a project from my company will cost. Will I be the highest bid? More than likely! It comes down to not wasting each other's time. It is nothing personal. If they decide to hire me, they become my most treasured business asset. It was someone's duty to inform them of estimated costs long before it got to this point. Why is everyone so afraid of quoting costs? It is what it is.

Wales - Darby? Call me, Dave.

hb

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Paul Pollets_2

I presume there's an air side?

If there's an air side to these numbers, the pricing may be reasonable, depending upon the skillset of the contractor and the quality of the work. Who is capable of reviewing the bidders and making sure apples are apples?

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Steve Ebels

Advice to the HO

The best contractors can take a crudely designed system with less than state of the art materials and equipment, and 9 out of 10 times, make it work pretty well. A mediocre or poor contractor will take a wonderful design using the best materials, and make a permanent mess of it. Also 9 of 10 times, the slipshod or uneducated contractor will also be the low bidder. Why? He's often trying to get money from you to pay off his last job because he under bid that, or, he doesn't know enough about what he's doing to give an accurate price or, maybe he's just "too busy" to take a long hard look at what the job entails to price it correctly. This list could go on forever. The point being contractor A and contractor B can use the same identical material and have completely different results. You hire the contractor not the materials and equipment.

I feel sorry for the guy because his GC didn't take the time to find out what was really up with the job.

Frankly speaking, I find it astounding that the average Joe will spend $30,000 on a car or truck that lasts for 5-7 years and then throw a fit about the same price for something that lasts for 30-50 and if properly designed saves him money every day as opposed to a less expensive incarnation of the "same thing".

PS I never price everything by line item on any job. The bottom line is the only thing that matters. Right?

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