well check valves..- brad.

Mike Kraft

What you are describing does sound like a faulty check valve.I am curious as to why he held the check open and filled it with water.This is a procedure new to me.The upgrade to a 3/4HP from a 1/2HP @ a 300' set is a good thing.May have been why the 1/2HP kicked the bucket.On deep wells adding a check valve will allow the pump some head.I dont know what you're well produces GPM.The static level sounds low.The rock trick is timed and for X amount of seconds this = staic height.I'm clueless (sorry) if the air is a result of overpumping or not enough head........but very sure this is not where the air is coming from.

You could add a globe or ball valve @ the tank to create head also.I have done this on shallow wells converting from jet pumps to submersibles.To confirm the check at the pump is indeed working you must pressure test it.

A new though,does the air only show up when you first turn the pump on?Or is it happening every time the pump cycles?

cheese

brad

air in house plumbing

i know this is primarily a hydronics site but you guys seem to know your stuff when its comes to anything plumbing.. after 15 years my jacuzzi well pump gave out @ weekend house here in jim thorpe PA. i called # my neighbor gave me to have pump replaced (of course it was January and the only significant snow of the year)..a competent plumber arrived ready to install new pump. i jokingly told him i didn't want to see him again for another 15 years and to replace everything and anything necessary to keep me from having to melt pots of snow to make coffee...he replaced 1/2 hp jacuzzi w/a 3/4HP jacuzzi....new well wire,new torque arrestors,new pitless adapter and so on...it being January he told me to boil some water and hold the check valve open w/a screwdriver while he poured the water into the top of the pump...SORRY FOR THE LONG BACKGROUND INFO....but with me not knowing anything about checkvalves being installed every 100' until i read the papers in the box after he left i now have a situation where i can leave the house for a month and the plumbing system in the house stays pressurized. so i think that tells me the checkvalve on the tank tee package is working (40-60 switch w/38lbs air in empty tank)....NOW FOR THE PROBLEM (if you're not sleeping by now..)from the time we arrive @ the house and turn the breakers on for the pump and water heater and the pump switch calls for water the pump starts and pumps AIR for about 20 seconds and then water starts filling welltrol tank...which leads me to believe that check valve on pump is not "sealing"...the downside of this is that everytime pump starts (5-6 times a day) 20 seconds of "air" is introduced into domestic system. i'm worried that if i don't go around "purging" all the faucets,icemakers..blah,blah,blah the 20 secs of air will wind up in the top of the electric water heater and kill the upper element,plus i dont know if it's even healthy to have air laying in the pipes (aerobic bacteria)....most of all it's just a big pain in the a**. SO....i think i've narrowed it down to the supply side of the system...i tried calling him yesterday and today but his# goes to ring no answer (big vacation week for everyone). if i ever get ahold of him should i ask him to install checkvalves every 100' like manual sez? the previous pump only used the check valve on the pump itself for 15 years and no problem...perhaps the checkvalve on the new pump is defective? well is approx 300 feet in depth but he threw a rock down the well casing and said water was only 75' from top of well. (maybe that's why no additional chack valves?) should i even be concerned w/this? like i sed before,i wasnt being cheap and wanted everything done right,i know u guys dont like to talk $,but for $1500. is it reasonable for me to ask him the ?'s i'm bothering u with? i don't want him pissed @ me for questioning his work. if u made it this far,thanks for not falling asleep,any advice would be appreciated,thanks again,bradley in jim thorpe,PA...(BTW,i did do a find a contractor search and nearest was over an hour drive..)

hr

The larger 3/4 hp pump

may be pumping faster than the well can supply it. Depending on where in the well it is set, and how many gpm the well can provide. Can you watch the static level as the pump runs?

hot rod

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Dave Yates (PAH)

air on start up

with a check that is holding at the tank T usually indicates a cracked pipe + bad or fouled check at the pump head, or several cracks. During idle times, between cycles, the line can drain down as far as the well's static water level. When the pump switch triggers a call for water, the same crack is too small to allow all of the air to be bled back out & there's your slug of air - gone from atmospheric to being under pressure. Your electric water heater elements are sufficiently below the outlet that I wouldn't be concerned about your building up enough air to expose the element into a "dry-fire" position. The design of the inlet/outlet would send the air directly to the outlet & it would be the first to be drawn out during use. When no hot water is being drawn, no air will enter that tank. It's more likely that the suddenly expanding (up to 7X) air could do damage to a faucet or water closet.

Good thing that tank T check is holding or you might see enough vacuum to collapse the well tank or water heater!

Good reasons to always install new pipe when changing out a well pump.

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brad

faulty checkvalve

1st of all,i want to thank u guys for not passing out while u were reading my long winded description of plumbing
hypochondria....both pumps were/are 8 GPM so i don't think that lack o water is the issue...i asked ALL my neighbors,total=3 (very sparce population here in Penn Forest township but we all do love the Jack Daniel's and that's why the water/ice is so important) and was told that this is a wetlands area and even rich sed that he couldn't believe the well was so deep w/water only 75' from top of well casing....the reason rich (plumber) had me boil water was because he had the pump in his truck overnite and he sed that sometimes water is left in the pump by the factory when they test it and didn't want to install a possibly frozen pump...i would have to agree w/the cracked poly tubing since it was only about 20* on 1/6/2002 and the pipe was laying in the snow after the upsa daisy (sic?) pulled the pump. rich was concerned that he got the tubing back down the casing before it froze...what do i do next?

brad

brad

brad

thanks for your help

the water level is 75' from top of well casing. even rich the plumber couldn't believe the well was so deep w/water so high...i asked ALL my neighbors =3,very sparce population here in Penn Forest Township and they told me it was a wetlands area so i dont think it's lack o water,(Jack Daniel's is very important to my neighbors and me,therefore my concern w/water (ice cubes). the only thing that wasn't changed was the poly tubing,and w/it being 15 years old and laying in the snow while pump was being changed it could have indeed developed cracks..
the reason for the hot water being poured into the pump was because it was 8* the nite before and rich sed that sometimes water is left in by the manufacturer when tested so since it was in his truck overnite he didnt want to install a frozen pump,he was concerned about getting poly and pump back in before poly froze. if water is 75' down from top of well casing i don't think additional check valves will solve the air issue. all i know is that im very hungover and will never drink again...yes the air is introduced every time the pump cycles and i know when the pump starts,house is 4,500 square feet and this morning w/my hangover i HEAR IT LOUD AND CLEAR wherever i go in this house of hell...did i mention i will never drink again?

hr

Install an air vent

I actually have an air injector on my well head. On every pump cycle it sucks in small amounts of air via a small venturi fitting. The water goes into a contact tank that allows the air to help the remove high iron content. The contact tank has a simple Honeywell Braukman air vent on top to purge the air after the "contact" period in the tank.

Our home in Utah had a small air compressor on an "Iron Curtain" iron removal system. It would inject air on every pump cycle. Once again a Braukman air vent on the contact removed all the air before it went into our plumbing system.

It would be nice to discover the cause, in your case. Something to do with the change out no doubt. As Dave mentioned if in fact their is a crack or small leak above the 75 foot static level, that could be where the problem starts. Happy hunting

hot rod

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Mike Kraft

Another thought

You could be losing water @ the pitless adapter.If this is not seated correctly you will lose water from the tank check to that point.

cheese

Bill NTSG

I had a couple of wells

with the same problem you are describing. Bad check valve at the pump. Off cycle the water drained back and pulled vacuum on the check valve at the tank.When the pump came back on in the morning [after no draw all night] WHACKO. I thought the customer was nuts until I heard it my self. Replaced the pump and added a check every 150' [well 450'] no more problem. As far as the 8° , the wellwater will still be 50-55°. Just have to put the pump back and give it a couple minutes to thaw. As far as air is concerned ,like it was said many systems have "aspirators" to add air to help remove certain iron problems. Makes it a bi--h though to fill and purge hot water heating zones.If it was a leak in the pitless adapter or a fitting you do not get as big a Whamo but you get air. I have heard people complain about the air knocking a water glass out of their hand when the slug of air hit it. No matter what pull the pump check for leaks or cracks visually . If you can not see crack ,rig up a test gauge and check with air. You can also test from well to house. Make up a blank or plugged pitless adapter half.

brad

pitless adapter

thanks once again for your time and excellent suggestion.....so due to my never ending streak of fabulous luck i grabbed my trusty rechargable flashlite and walked out to the well head while i left some faucets running....it was great,the flashlite stayed on right up to the second i popped the well cap! (i cursed it and am charging it now)...i did hear the pump start and then a rush of water and then just a very quiet hum while it refilled the tank for about 2 mins or so and then a freaking plane flew over so i couldn't hear when it stopped,i wanted to see if i could hear any noise @ the pitless which is about 5-6 feet down in almost total darkness...i would love to see some water dripping from it but i will now have to wait for the flashlite to charge..thanks again,i'll wait an hour or so and see if i can get the lite to work for 3 minutes.

Bill NTSG

A Mirror....

..Will work great in the day time. My dear old Dad had a "vanity" mirror from the sun visor of an old caddilac. You hold it at an angle to catch the sun and reflect the beam of light into the well casing. Better than any flashlight on a bright day. I think I still have the same mirror in my tool box.

hr

A motorcycle mirror

is what I keep in my truck. A nice stainless steel case and handle to boot. I have also used the shiney side of my 30 foot Stanley tape measure to reflect sunlight down a dark spot.

hot rod

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brad

mirror

that's amazing,when rich the plumber was lining up the pitless he had the same motorcycle mirror and asked me to hold it for him and it worked great. i have one that i'm always tripping over but as usual,i need it so i can't find it anywhere...i just had an off the wall idea (pun intended)i have a sony digital camera w/strap..it's the size of a normal point and shoot but it takes approx 2 minutes of video and has it's own light built in...i tie a piece of clothesline to strap and push the video button and lower it down the well casing while pump is cycling....no i am not drinkng...but if i set it for up close portrait i should be able to get a look at things down there....bottom line is from what you guys are telling me,pump has to be pulled and pressure tested/repaired/replaced...no wonder there a so many "lurkers" on the wall...your guys brainpower is much appreciated and your willingness to take the time and help out dummies like me is far from the norm of most webforums. if i was a cool person i would say "you guys rock",but i'm not,so i won't....

nick z.

cracked fitting

I have ran into the same problem amny times . Most itmes it is the check @ the pump. But two times it has been a cracked fitting just outside the casing where the pitless comes through. Seems 15-20 yrs. ago when they started to make plastic adapter many guys used them because they were much cheaper and they were told they were good. It seems to me as the plastic gets old it gets hard and cracks. I agree with the post that mentions the problem is down in the well because of the amount of air you're getting. But the jobs with the cracked fittings acted the same way.Sound like you're plumber knows what he's doing. As far as a crack in the pipe in my opion ,not likely . I'm sure it must be al least 160 poly and that stuff will really take some abuse. good luck. If you really get stuck I'm about 1 hr.away from Mauch Chunk.

brad

mauch chunk...

boy,it is a small global internet,a penn teledata prolog email and you know jim thorpe as mauch chunk.....have u heard the family wants the name and the body back and we may have to revert to mauch chunk? this is even after the town recently rallied to have him put on the wheaties box...thanks for the info on the pitless,from what little i can see it looks like its bronze/brass or some metal...my original post alluded his# was going to ring no answer and i know this is like the biggest vacation week of the year. his yellow pages ad sez hes been in this area for 20+ years so i don't think he's moved,he was telling me the "city" came to him why should he go work in the city..he's in monroe county...and chastised me for putting in HWBB instead of radiant heat. everyone deserves a vacation and i hope he's enjoying one now. i do appreciate
your offer to help me out and will let u know if i can't find him anymore...i know plumbers are busy folks,i had to wait over a month to get the blackpipe run for the 2 gas fireplaces....but that was not exactly an emergency considering all of the no-heat calls you guys get.. i know i would want a plumber who responded to my no-heat or no-water trbl instead of running blackpipe for someones BBQ and fireplaces....thanks again,brad

Earthfire

air in well

You told the installer to fix every thing. If you now have a diaphram pressure tank ("welltroll")and had a galvanized tank previously at some stage of the homes existence , and the well drop pipe has not been replaced, there is probable a bleeder Tee about 3 to 5 ft. below your pitless adapter . was meant as an air injector to help maintain air coushion in galvanised tanks so they wouldn't waterlog. Pull up your pump a few feet and check the drop pipe. If bleeder tee is there remove or plug it. BTW we are in Lehighton.

brad

welltroll

thanks lehighton,i built house in summer of 1985 by John Wargo,randy neeb did the well and have always had a wellxtrol...there is a new 40-60 switch and pressure guage on tank tee,last week or so i shut off breaker and let tank drain,flushed toilets and opened lowest faucets,i then checked air pressure in welltrol and it read 38.2 lbs on digital guage and i read somewhere the air pressure is supposed to be 2 lbs below cutin in on switch so i think im ok w/that...i think it's called cutin..as for the tee below the pitless i was helping rich walk the poly out in the road and am positive there was nothing below the pitless.....as for the poly being durable i asked since we were putting the tubing in the road what happens if a car drives by? he sed it was tough stuff and would squeeze down but not break,anyway no car ever came by....its quite a desolate dead end road we,re on...but if the poly is so durable air is getting in somewhere and it probably has to be above static level of well....as for ME pulling the tubing up,it ain't gonna happen....i would have to get some kind of pulley and attach the nylon to the lawn tractor and i don't see that happening. for this week i will try to track down rich...he has an uppsa daisy (i think thats what it's called)if i cant get him in a week or 2,would you be able to take a look? i dont have one of those tee handled pipes that places the pitless into the slot,i would just wind up dropping the whole thing down the well.. i will email u my #,thanks again,brad...