What nozzle for old Beckett AFG on a new Weil-McLain WGO-3?
This is a question that arose at the end of a thread on another subject (soot in boiler) but it's kind of its own subject. (Thanks to those who helped me on the other thread.)
I put my old Beckett AFG burner with F3 head on a new Series 4 Weil-McLain WGO-3 oil boiler a couple of years ago. The decal on the boiler says flat out that with a Beckett AFG go with a .85 45B nozzle, but the decal on the AFG says .85 70B, confusing the heck out of me back then until I figured out after looking at some literature that was probably because the new Series 4 WGO's, when they ship with a burner, probably ship with the L1 heads, and on the decal they just didn't account for the possibility of someone putting an old burner on a new boiler when they made the decal. (A call to W-M or Beckett, or both, I forget, plus feedback on this website told me this was an okay thing to do.) Regarding the nozzle specifically, I couldn't find much from W-M, but Beckett's OEM Spec Guide, non-pdf version at says indeed, for the GO-3 with F3 head, go with the .85 70B (which is in there now), no mention of Series 3 or 4, and the guide was updated after Series 4 came out, so I figured I'm good.
Confusingly, though, it says in the notes for that entry that the 'H' in the nozzle description stands for Hago. It's confusing because I saw no 'H' in the description, probably an omission, but the note is there, and the decal on the old AFG says .85 70B Hago.
Now I stumbled on an Inspectopedia note that said when converting from Hago to Delavan you need to go to the next wider nozzle. (I currently have Delavan; Hago's seem hard to come by but if it makes a difference I can try to get one in that size, or go wider with the Delavan if you think I should.)
The thing is, at last cleaning a couple days ago I had a thin layer of black soot. Testing the boiler "as found," before changing to a clean nozzle, etc. (which I haven't done yet) showed all good except 14.5% CO2, which on the one hand I'm not happy about, but on the other hand I'm happy because at least I have a clear possible cause of soot. (I have zero smoke now, but I realize 14.5% gives me no margin for any changes that could happen through the year.)
Since the air shutters are all maxed open now, when I change to a fresh nozzle I will go to the air bands if testing shows it's necessary (thank you @EBEBRATT-Ed on the other thread).
But my question is, anybody have any experience with this Hago to Delavan conversion, possible going wider? (Had all been good, no soot, I would just have replaced the old .85 70B with a new one and not started this thread.) Or for that matter with an AFG with F3 head on a Series 4 WGO? Since my problem right now is not enough excess air, what effect in general would going wider with a nozzle have? Would going wide increase my need for air (not desirable in my case) or decrease it (desirable, and maybe I wouldn't have to go to the air bands)?
Bottom line: should I try to get a Hago in that size (they seem hard to get), stay with Delavan and go wider, or go with what I have, going to the air bands if necessary? At first I felt fishy about going to the air bands (shouldn't it run okay with just the shutters if you have the right nozzle?) but now I know it's okay, they must be there for a reason.
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First thing I'd do is add some air to bring the CO2 down to ~13%. Then see if the flame is impinging (contacting the firebox refractory) anywhere- in this case it would probably be the rear "target wall". If not, you should be OK. If so, go to the 80° Delavan. Also, did you check the pump pressure?
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@Steamhead I think he mentioned 140psi in the other thread.
This is just my opinion and no doubt others will disagree with me.
The best nozzle for your burner in that boiler is the one that combustion tests the best.
IMHO what the MFG tells you IMHO is nothing but a starting point. Sometimes their settings are spot on and sometimes they are not close.
What do you do when you install a burner and you set everything to factory spec and it doesn't work right? Throw up you hand and walk away and say well "I did what the book said"
Having been a rep for burner MFGs in the past I have seen some of the stuff they sell that is supposed to be 100% ok but its not. Yes, I am pessimistic.
I have had many brand-new jobs that didn't work right when set to factory spec. But you have to start there it is a starting point.
As far as nozzles go there used to be many nozzle MFGs. Now that oil isn't as popular as it was some of them have closed or been bought out by other companies. Danfoss took over Hago.
I like Delevan if I have my choice but that's just me.
There is no specific correlation between different brand nozzles. How they measure spray angle, solid spray, hollow spray etc is all different so a direct comparison isn't much more than a guess. still have to test.
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Searching my database I have a number of customers with GO-3’S, F3 head .85x70B Delavan nozzles that run fine. It’s most likely the original spec.
Over the years, and especially since the introduction of Bio, every burner manufacturer has/is retesting their original specs with higher pump pressures and new burner set ups.
A very light layer of soot isn’t all that uncommon and could’ve been caused by a temporary anomaly. Things like running on a very cold day or a very warm day when combustion was set up at the opposite temperature. Something affecting draft or combustion air temporarily. It could’ve even been caused by the last time you had the nozzle assembly out and nudged the z dimension slightly. There is a little play in it as you tighten the escutcheon nut. 1/4” can be the difference between clean combustion and plugging it with soot in a short time.
I’d stick with what you have. Make sure the heat exchanger is clean, and the very important Z dimension is perfect.
Make sure you are at steady state, and your draft is set first.
Then make sure you are performing the smoke test properly. Pumping it like you’re filling up a bicycle tire is incorrect.
From the instructions:- Insert the filter paper: Open the clamp screw on the tester, insert a clean piece of Bacharach filter paper into the slot, and tighten the screw securely to ensure an airtight seal.
- Position the sampling tube: Insert the metal sampling probe directly into the flue gas duct or pipe. Place it in the center of the main flow of combustion products.
- Draw the sample: Pull the pump piston through 10 full, steady strokes. Take about 3 to 4 seconds for each stroke. Hold the piston for several seconds at the end of each pull stroke.
- Remove the paper: Loosen the clamp screw and remove the filter paper.
- Compare with the smoke scale: Hold the official Bacharach Smoke Scale at arm's length from your eyes. Match the shade of the test spot to the numbered reference circles on the scale to determine the smoke density. A reading of zero indicates clean combustion, while higher numbers show excessive soot.
- Purge the tool: Periodically purge the pump with clean room air using rapid strokes without any filter paper inserted to clear out soot or moisture.
If you are still insisting on trying different nozzles, you can look up how to perform a nozzle substitution test to try to dial it in even more.
If your shutter is at 10 and your band is fully closed, I’d recommend trying something a little different. The shutter is small steps and the band is big steps. I’d probably open the band to maybe 1, and move the shutter down to about 5.
The goal is to see smoke on the test paper, then continue opening the shutter and re-doing the smoke test until you get to 0 smoke. At that point you’d benefit from a combustion analyzer to show you CO2, excess air and CO. You’d ideally want to open the shutter to drop the CO2 1%.1 -
No problem using the 70° B Delavan with the F3 head.
I don't think you should have to take the air band off 0. Most setups with your firing rate show about a 7 or 8 on the shutter, and 0 on the band using a 3-3/8" static plate. Check insertion depth, Z dimension, and make sure there's no low fire baffle installed.
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This is all incredible info.
@HVACNUT I meant to answer you on the other thread, but here goes: Yes it’s Series 4. Also I don’t think there’s a low fire baffle in there (though I’ve never knowingly seen a low fire baffle in my life, but I looked it up and I don’t think so). Don’t know if it’s the welded flange thing, but I can look when I open it up. Yes, the AFG burner came off my old WGO-3 (Gold). And @HVACNUT and @HydronicMike I will check the Z dimension, I have the little orange Z-gauge that cost $20 for a little piece of plastic. Not sure how to check insertion depth but I’m sure that’s easy. @HydronicMike I will do what you said exactly and also be very careful with the escutcheon nut. @EBEBRATT-Ed that’s exactly the kind of perspective someone with years of experience can give relatively ignorant diy YouTube-watching manual-readers like me. It’s sort of like how it takes years of experience for a carpenter to know when a 1/32” difference matters a lot, and when a 1/4” difference doesn’t matter at all, which they don’t tell you in the books. (I’m not a carpenter either, but you get my point.)
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he did mention the air band was at 0 and the air shutter maxed out. So unless his x dimension isn’t correct he may have to open the band, no?
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Yes, a sure way to bring down CO2 would be to open the band. I'm just not sure that's the issue, or how it will affect over fire draft. Looking at other OEM setups with a similar firing rate, air tube, pump pressure, etc., the band is always 0. My Beckett OEM manual doesn't even show anything for the air shutter and band settings with the OP's configuration. I believe @seized123 said draft was -.02/-.04 so thats ok. If all else is correct, yeah, open the band. See what it does. I'm all for T&E when its not mine.
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Okay, @EBEBRATT-Ed, @HVACNUT, @HydronicMike, and others: put in a new nozzle and I get:
Temp: 410
Draft: -.03/-.02
Smoke: Zero
CO2: 12.5%
which I got after at first getting smoke with air shutters closed some and adjusting down to no smoke. No air bands were opened, just air shutters, but they had to be open to 10 to get that. Glad it’s at 12.5, but would feel better if that were at 7 or 8 for the shutters. Can’t have everything.
Still wonder why I was getting 14-14.5% with the old nozzle. One possibility: when I went to loosen the escutcheon nut (not the thumb wheel, but the nut that holds the electrode assembly in place forwards vs backwards) it seemed to be loose! Maybe the electrode assembly shifted with vibration or whatever changing the Z dimension. A quick look at AI, which often gets stuff wrong, is that if the Z dimension gets smaller then the oil overshoots the air pattern which results in incomplete combustion (hence higher CO2?).Another possibility? The boiler was set up in late November, so: cold weather. Would warmer ambient air increase the CO2 reading or decrease it, I wonder. I can check it again in colder weather.
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After it runs a month or so take a peek at it and do a combustion test. I think it should be fine.
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Taking this much time and effort to get the air adjustment exactly right seems like an exercise in futility. that is unless you have a completely clean boiler room where no dust or lint will accumulate on the burner fan. That small amount of lint and household dust will decrease the amount of combustion air feed to the flame. The net result of the perfect adjustment is a fuel savings of about 1 or 2 gallons over the year.
The bottom line for total tie spent on a tune up is to have a result that gives you a soot free flame for 90% to 100% of the heating season. At the next tune up, remove the lint from the burner combustion air fan and air intake parts, replace the nozzle, filter , strainer, remove any soot buildup from the fire side of the heat exchanger, do the combustion test. Quite often you will find out that no additional adjustment is required if you got it right the year before.
On your WGO-3 with a trace of smoke or a #1-2 smoke at 13.5 CO₂ with a air shutter at 10 and the air band at 0%, I would open the air band to 20% and close the air shutter to get the same result of 13.5 CO₂. Then open the air shutter until you get a zero smoke, hopefully you have a 12% to 12.5% CO₂. once you have that you can open the shutter a little more to get the CO₂ to drop by 1/2% to 1% CO₂. Then forget about it
That is what I did on over 500 customers every year, rarely did I need to remove soot from a boiler or furnace I tuned up the previous year.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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If I'm not liking what the analyzer is telling me, I'll play with the air until I get what I like. (As long as everything else is copacetic.) Then I check smoke and draft. 99% of the time I lock it in. Mostly because I have an obsession with getting it down to 0 ppm CO. Some, like a Biasi with a Riello F3 gives me fits because they won't ever give me 0 with CO.
Zero smoke, correct draft, and a flue gas temperature above the dew point is the main goal.
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- @seized123 is working on his own system, I believe.
- The burner did not come with the boiler.
- The OEM guides indicate something slightly different based on the selected burner
- The Beckett has information on a sticker based on OEM boiler it WAS attached to.
- When following one spec v. another spec / one nozzle v. another nozzle the results indicate some smoke @ 13.5 CO₂ on some combustion testing instrument.
Another 7 hours of checking, nozzle swapping, and air adjustments will get you to the perfect most efficient, incredibly uber efficient setting that will never be achieved in the next 100 years on any other oil burner in the universe. and the net result will be saving $3.48 per year on the fuel bill.
I understand @HVACNUT's obsession on getting the Biasi / Riello combination to have 0ppm CO. I remember spending 3 hours on a Carrier furnace in a crawlspace, trying to get it right with no success. Finally the next day, I got a return call from the Carrier Tech Support and the Beckett Tech support that indicated the nozzle spec in the instructions was incorrect. Went back with the proper nozzle and got it done in 6 minutes with 0 smoke and 12% CO₂. So I have been there with you and @seized123. I just believe that with the info received here about using the GO-3’S, F3 head .85x70B Delavan nozzles that run fine from @HydronicMike should put this to bed.
My last rant on this obsession. LOL
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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In my experience the MFG do not get this right every time. If you're a tech that "goes by the book" that's fine until the "book" is wrong.
You can work on it for hours and stare at the book and it won't change anything.
I have had many instances of this. On two jobs we called Carlin in and they found nothing wrong with the installs. They installed out of spec nozzles and it fixed both jobs. The other one was a Power Flame where the factory specified a 80deg nozzle and we ended up with a 45-degree fixing it. This was an HB Smith/Power Flame factory package.
I also went to Riello training in Toronto where one of their lab burners we were being trained on would not cooperate. This was late in the day and when we came in the next morning the instructor had worked on this burner most of the night and it still was not right.
Combustion is fickle.
Air temperature and humidity change
fuel temp and quality changes
Draft can change
There are a lot of things that can change combustion. If you look for perfect #s it might be a while. You are looking for a safe range.
Some manufacturers do a great job with their testing. Some manufacturers do almost nonexistent testing.
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One job I rember was a small school in Vermont. 2 Smith boilers with older Power Flame 'C" burners from the early 60s when they used 2 nozzles in the burner.
They had been having issues but really the boilers and burners just needed cleaning and adjusting and they ran fine.
Problem was the nozzles were made by Steinen and they were 90 deg SS nozzles and no longer made. I changed them and put in Hago 90 ss as the supply house told me "they're the same"
Nope. The burners ran like crap.
So I cleaned the old nozzles and reinstalled them with new strainers. They ran fine. This continued for a couple of years no problem. Then I was moved into the office to estimate. My "replacement" was told to not toss the nozzles under any circumstances.
He did. After things got all sooted up we ended up putting in new burners that they didn't need.
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I don't remember this was in the 90s. We put in a couple of Carlin burners with single phase motors. The custodian was happy because the wiring was set up with the old burners which were 3 phase and they had a contactor wired in the power supply somehow so if they lost power (which they did often out in the boonies) the contactor would drop out and it had to be reset. The boilers wouldn't start till someone came in and reset it.
I told him it depends on which leg goes out you may be no better off but that's what they wanted. I think they were like 10gph burners.
They ran good with the Steinen nozzles. With the Hagos they were awful. Some years after that Power Flame redesigned and went with 1 nozzle, higher oil pressure and a bypass nozzle on some burners.
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A lot of OEM specs are way off. I know they list them as a starting point, but some aren't anywhere near close. That being said, I've never had an issue with a .85 70°B Delavan with the configuration the OP has. Not to say adjustments aren't needed, but never out of range.
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This subject has stirred up some not so good memories of jobs that didn't work. For a time in the early to mid 2000s I did a lot of start ups for what at that time was Buderus. Most of these were like 1,500,000-6,000,000 mostly natural gas, not too much oil Some on their CI boilers and some on the SS condensing boilers.
I will say that the Riellos ran great for the most part and the manuals were excellent with regard to the burner set up………………….if you could understand the translation to English which was difficult at times. "Low Power" meant "Low fire", "High power"="High Fire" is pretty simple but trying to figure out some of the other stuff was more difficult.
Then Power Flame started selling some burners to Buderus. After all cheaper is better right?? I liked PF for the most part. I was a factory rep for them for 10 years 1976-1986.
So I did some start ups for a school system. These were PF gas/oil burners We were just the start up guys we didn't install or sell anything. On gas the PFs were fine on oil low fire was reasonable but high fire forget it. It was disgusting. No adjustment could fix it. I disconnected the oil solenoid valve on the burners so they could only run gas. Like I said we were the su guys not the "fix a burner that was never right "guys
I was pissed so the next day I called PF and my first question was "who did the testing on this combination you or Buderus". The answer I got was a lukewarm "well, PF did some testing" My guess having been to their factory back in the 80s that they didn't test anything in an actual boiler but fired the burner into an open test pit which I was told was just an "operational test"
Un fortunately this is the way it is. It would cost a lot of $$$ to test a commercial burner on a boiler that could be a 4,5,6,7,8,9 or 10 section boiler on LP, oil or NG and it probably would require different burners to cover that range. So they skip it and Guess. This is more of an issue in commercial than residential.
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