Boiler replacement suggestions

CeeBe_15

we currently have a dying burnham PV84WC-TBWN. About 24 years old and leaking water. It’s a tight spot to fit something and we have a water heater as well. That’s about 13 years old so trying to retain but thinking maybe that’s time to replace as well.

We’ve had a few companies come out for quotes, i guess I wasn’t ready for the sticker shock…

I thought I had a decent list of brands and models but I’ve had so much information overload the last few days. Here are some of the options offered and honestly could use some direction. A few companies were really pushing Energy Kinetics EK1F-140 “system 2000”. I feel there’s mixed reviews of how much better or worse this would be than a cast iron boiler.

So here’s the shortlist
Energy Kinetics EK1F-140 system 2000
Burnham PV8H4WEC-TBWN
Weil McLain WGO-5
peerless WBV-03-WPC
Viessmann Vitorond 100

also brings up the question of which burner brand/model.

we currently have a becket afg

Shoudl we look at riello or Carlin? One installer said they only swear by riello and would pair with a viessmann boiler.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I am not a Burnham fan so I won't comment on them.

As far as burners goe Riello, Carlin or Beckett you're not making a mistake with which ever one you chose. They are all good. Use the burner your installer wants. For me I don't care for Reillo but that's just my personal opinion. Most oil techs love them.

As for boilers EK is excellent and follow this forum closely so they will respond. They can answer any question you have. Many consider them the Cadillac.

All the other boiler you mentioned are fine.

I would base what you by on a few factors.

How long will you live in the house? If its short term takes a cheaper option. Anyone of them is fine.

If you're staying long term, go up the scale

CeeBe_15

thanks for the reply!

About burnham, was told there was a lot of defects on early PV8 models. They said they fixed the design but those replacements still failed l. So yea I think they’re not even on my radar now.

Any reason you don’t like the riello burner? I think I was so focused on boilers I didn’t give much thought to burners. Is there any brand that’s more the industry standard or better option? I also wasn’t sure if certain brands work well or better with different boilers.

Honestly had never heard of kinetic energy/system 2000. I got mixed feedback from the installers, half love them half hate them and think it’s over engineered. From what I’m reading you need to install properly to see the efficiency gains they state.

We plan to stay here for at least the next 10-15 years if not more. I figured whether it’s a cast iron or system 2000, a fairly new boiler is still a good selling point.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Well, if you want anything to run right it has to be installed right.

In fact, one thing we always preach here is that the installer is more important than the boiler you pick.

Don't take it for granted you will get a good installer. Not in this day and age. Do some checking. EK I think only sell to their approved dealers so there is that. They also follow this site and respond to any issues.

Nothing wrong with Riello. Others will post and among oil techs you will probably find more that like them than don't. All 3 burners are proven to work well and have been around for decades. Which burner you get is the least of any issues you will have. You can also check "find a contractor" on this site or post your location if you want

mattmia2

although I will say we seem to see a lot of 30-40 year old WMs leaking and a lot of very old Peerless boilers on here. The EK and the Viessman are higher efficiency and a little more prone to becoming obsolete before they leak but both are likely to last several decades.

HVACNUT

Stay away from the pin HX boilers. Go with either the Viessmann, or the EK. The Carlin EZ-1 burner is standard with the EK. I believe you can opt for a Beckett or Riello, but no need. They burn beautifully with the Carlin. If Viessmann, go with the Riello. If you hear your burner now, you're really going to hear the F3 or F5 Riello. If noise is a concern, opt for the BF3 or BF5 which is sealed and combustion air is ducted from outside. If the space is tight like you say, outside combustion air is probably a good thing. The EK accepts outside combustion as well, and a sealed burner box. And its extremely quiet.

CeeBe_15

not sure what “pin HX” boiler means, could you explain which models that applies to?

we may end up going with the Viessman/riello instead of the energy kinetics option. The EK was just a lot more for install and seems limited on companies in our area who install and service them. Our current boiler/burner is loud but not obnoxious. So if it’s about the same level we are fine as long as it’s not a lot louder.

Then of course I start trying to make some sense of this info.

https://energykinetics.com/afue/

Are these really that much more efficient? Is cast iron type a dying tech? My worry is the long term maintenance and limited service support near us. Plus spending that much more, I’m hoping we would see savings in oil and use at least 20% less or more.

hot_rod

any upgrades you can make to the home will be a good way to reduce energy use. The efficiency of the home drives the energy consumption

Weatherstrip, sealing any gap that allow heat out, etc

EBEBRATT-Ed

I don't really know why people are down on pin boilers. Yeah, maybe the Weil McLain's leak after 30-40 years but show me a Burnham that will last 20 years. Not where I live

The Weil has been around a long long time. I am sure they sell these by the truckload. Same with Peerless. Nothing wrong with Utica/Dunkirk either.

I am not saying they are the best but they hold up better than some of the other stuff.

Every time someone says pin boilers suck you find out that's what they install.

Smith 28s & 19s and Weil 88s & 78s are pin boilers used on commercial stuff all the time. In fact you would be hard pressed to find something other than a pin boiler on commercial stuff unless you go with steel which isn't always practical for replacements. Viessmann & Bosch may be the exceptions.

CeeBe_15

appreciate everyone’s feedback so far. I’m in such information overload I feel I can’t decide on my options.

so back to my finalists

Weil McLain wgo-3 or wgo-5
Viessmann - not sure of exact model. Any ones to avoid or choose over the other?
peerless WBV-03-WPC

from the limited info I found, it seems viessmanns may be a little more sensitive to regular maintenance and theres less availability of parts specific to the boiler internals.

I think the cost of the energy kinetics plus the limited service support nearby is making me decide against it. I’m still not fully understanding how it’s superior for efficiency compared to cast iron boilers.

mattmia2

unless you are running a tankless coil or something is really not working right I don't think anything will make you save 20% on fuel thought changing a boiler.

wjcandee

I have just been through this. There is no reason to obsess over some alleged absence of support for EK. There are likely plenty of EK dealers wherever you are, and there's nothing about them that in a pinch a regular boiler guy probably couldn't fix. Most of the time people have issues with their burner, not their boiler. When was the last time you had somebody have to come out and do something with the boiler itself (other than clean it) as opposed to the burner or the controls. I just installed an EK. I'm annoyed with my particular dealer because of some stupid plumbing things they did, but I love the boiler itself, and EK has been extraordinarily and personally responsive and I'm confident will work with the dealer to get the installation stupidity corrected. That echoes what everybody here says about your installer being paramount. The EK is a fantastic boiler and a great system and there's no reason to write it off. Most of the time, these are just things that people say to try to scare you away from it, as I experienced before deciding to go with it after doing a giant pile of research.

Roger

Thank you for your posts @CeeBe_15 , and for everyone's kind words about Energy Kinetics. We are going on our 47th year, and to put it mildly, we know boilers and water heating and have an exceptional network of heating professionals. We use industry standard parts wherever possible, and we carry a deep inventory of the parts that are not, and publish their pricing and lifetime protection plans on our website.

Much of the System 2000 Frontier efficiency comes from low mass (contrast with heavy cast iron sections that finish hot when the burner shuts off, letting heat energy drift up and out the chimney) and thermal purge (this keeps the circulator on and recovers the heat left in the boiler and the piping so the boiler finishes cold - virtually no off cycle loss). The key to make hot water replenishment work is the thermal purge to the hot water tank - this is achieved with a plate heat exchanger that heats the tank from the top down. At the end of the hot water call to heat the tank, there is a reservoir of unheated water at the bottom of the tank that is a near perfect balance for the heat remaining in the boiler. The boiler purges that heat to the tank and the boiler finishes cold and the tank finishes hot.

Boilers with indirect tanks with coils finish hot 3 to 5+ times a day in an typical active household. A high mass boiler may take up to 10 minutes to heat up, which means there is up to 10 minutes of energy left wasted in the boiler when the burner shuts off - especially in the summer, spring, and fall when no more heat will be needed for some time.

The combination of low mass and thermal purge means that there is virtually no oversizing penalty and it will run at near peak efficiency from very small to full steady state loads.

A recent broad study of heat and hot water boilers from NORA showed that the average savings when upgrading to our low mass thermal purge design was 25% vs older boilers. That's average savings, not an outlier.

Homeowners also love the near endless hot water and whisper quiet operation, which is very different than all other oil boilers.

@CeeBe_15 , I hope you will consider Energy Kinetics - please PM me or call to talk with your territory manager to help answer questions you may have. Our phone is 908 735-2066.

Thank you,

Roger

KC_Jones

More important than brand is sizing it correctly. Most of the time the boiler is oversized, do you know how they sized it? Do you know how your original was sized?

Considering you have WGO-3 and WGO-5 on the list shows the sizing being proposed to you is all over the place.

As a bit of a reality check, how many square feet is the house this boiler will reside in? Don't size by that, but it would give a general idea if what they are proposing is oversized, which is the most common thing with heating equipment.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Yeah. I was gong to say what happened to the WGO-4?

mattmia2

I would look for who included heat loss calculations in their proposal, or at least a reference to do it if they get the job and adjust the boiler model accordingly. If it is also providing DHW that could come in to play in sizing the boiler.

hot_rod

Over sizing a non modulating type boiler, especially on zoned system, can really drive down what is know as cycle efficiency. Ideally the boiler runs a minimum of 10 minutes every time it fires.This assures the return temperature rises and the flue piping gets warmed and dried to prevent flue gas condensation.

Again this is part of the job assessment all installers should perform.

What type of heat emitters? A quick check for the boiler sizing, you could measure the heat emitters, get an output number, no need to put in more boiler than the heat emitters can transfer iton the space.

Copper fin tube is an easy calculation, measure all the finned section X 500= boiler output required.

A load calc is ideal, especially if any upgrades have been made that would result in lower loads then when it was built.

Roger

Sizing for oilheat systems can be done accurately using annual gallons and heating degree day information. We covered this in a prior HeatingHelp thread here. For Energy Kinetics equipment, we have this sizing chart based on fuel consumption as well.

Roger