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Boiler Heats House and Pool

One of my customers had me out yesterday to re-light the pilot light on his boiler. He heats his pool in the summer and the house (radiant) in the winter with the same boiler. The pilot wouldn't stay lit and I started replacing the thermocouple, got my head down on the ground to get a good look inside the firebox and noticed a very large pile of debris including two or three burners that somehow fell off the manifold. Small job turns big.

This is the original 70-year old, MC Universal boiler, 160K BTU. As far as I know, there is no HX for the pool heating. Somehow, the chlorine in the pool water doesn't bother the copper HX in the boiler, but would react with a stainless steel HX in a new boiler. The work to replace the boiler will have to include a separate HX for the pool.

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8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab

Comments

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 13,046

    i bet it is all sooted up from the low temp pool water and that is what destroyed the burners.

    BruceSteinberg
  • I have since found out that copper tubing is encased in the gunite around the pool, so there’s no chlorine to worry about.
    Interesting that it’s only a 007 circulator. My guess is that the 1” tubing leaving the mechanical room goes to a copper manifold with 1/2” tubing circling the pool.

    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
    mattmia2GGross
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,978

    @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

    Looks like your getting yourself into a nice mess on this one!!😊😊😊😊

    mattmia2Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
  • ScottSecor
    ScottSecor Member Posts: 987

    @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes so, if I understand this correctly, the pool is heated with a radiant copper loop on the sides of the pool? In addition, this radiant system and boiler have been in operation since the 1950's? That's pretty impressive!

    bjohnhy
  • There are about a dozen of my customers that still have this brand of boiler working for them. Charlie Pistante - long gone now - was the guy that installed it. His sticker is on the cover plate of one of the junction boxes. He continued working well into his 80's because he needed the money to pay his wife's medical bills.

    Such a simple system, no? Flue gas condensation? Probably, considering the pile of combustion debris below the burner. Maybe it's was self-cleaning.

    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
    GGross
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,791
    edited June 3

    How many gallons is the pool? 160K input isn't much. Maybe plate heat exchangers for both sides.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 25,170

    Can you get some S&R piping to the pool equipment and install HX into the pool loop. I wonder about the life expectancy of the copper in Gunite?

    What size pool?

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 4,463
    edited June 3

    ”Normal” pool size. 30’ x 20’ x 7’ deep at the deep end. Yes, that’s a lot of water with a relatively small boiler, but it seems to work for them.
    They only use it in the summer; probably wouldn’t work so well in the winter.
    Since we can only install condensing equipment here in the Bay Area, the boiler would have to be working off setpoint in the summer; reset in the winter.

    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
  • MarkMurf
    MarkMurf Member Posts: 40

    Given the application, would perhaps a possibly too high delta T cause an inordinate amount of moisture on the combustion side of the vessel ? This causing the traditional issue of the by-products of combustionn ie ; sulphur, soot (unburned fuel), and ash adhering to that moisture ? In a extreme condition the weight of such impurities might have ill-effected the positioning of said burner tubes ? As with the preferred modern piping arrangements on the new smaller heat exchangers, maybe a primary, secondary loop piping set-up would alleviate the condition. And excuse this old timer but, isn't that one Grundfos circ pump installed in an incorrect position ? I'll believe so.

    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 25,170

    it is a stainless body pump also. Must be for the pool water 😆judging by the color, it has been in there awhile.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Roger
    Roger Member Posts: 406

    I thought this link may be of interest here. It has information about how Energy Kinetics Smart Pool Heater uses the excess capacity of boilers in the summer to heat pools. The plate heat exchanger is non-stick and corrosion resistant Sealix® coated (silicon dioxide), making it extremely robust in pool water applications. The flyer has a basic piping diagram and references how quickly various pool sizes will heat up with boilers ranging from 100,000 BTU/hr to 300,000 BTU/hr (with minimal heat loss). We'd recommend a bypass and properly setting the hydronic flow to prevent the return from condensing while pool heating.

    The heat exchanger should be installed outdoors, so if the pool piping every breaks/leaks, you do not end up with an indoor pool…

    Best,

    Roger

    President
    Energy Kinetics, Inc.
    gunn308PC7060
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,978

    They don't need much heat in CA. I visited a relative out there once and I remarked how the city water line was on the outside of the house above ground. "Won't that freeze" They all laughed at me.

    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,867

    Hi, It doesn't happen often, but we had a freeze in the 1990s that had all of the plumbers out until around midnight dealing with burst pipes and cracked valves. Even plumbing at homes right near the ocean had freeze damage… It's not all that hard to do the work in a way that's less likely to freeze, so I do.

    They shouldn't have laughed at you!

    Yours, Larry

    mattmia2
  • Roger
    Roger Member Posts: 406

    I have friends in southern California that have a boiler and central air conditioning. They're also near the ocean and have lived in the house for 30 years and told me a few years ago that they have never used either…

    President
    Energy Kinetics, Inc.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 25,170

    maybe a portable pool heater is in their future?

    IMG_0458.jpeg
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    EBEBRATT-EdPC7060
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 13,046

    might as well just put a 5 gallon bucket of oil next to an oil boiler…