dealing with twists in the pex , not staple up. I have Omega extrusions now. YAY!

AlaskaDick

Speaking of the blue plastic, is it necessary that it be removed before staple up heat transfer plates are installed?

skyking1

I don't know the right answer for that.

We are getting plates up today. Thanks again Bob for the magnet wrist band suggestion. My brother and I are putting them up using gauge blocks off the joist caps, two guns, and scaffolding.

skyking1

'we have about 1000 feet installed so far. We will finish the 1st floor tomorrow and I can take stock on what I might need to order. I can get some upunor locally if needed, but I get the thinfin C for less. It boils down to the shipping quote. I am guessing about 3 boxes shy. Oops.

hot_rod

What is your plan for getting around that beam?

skyking1

That beam and bearing wall line is a loop divider. I have planned it that way. I have no desire to perforate the stacked beams.

I ran the plates up to that one and will loop up out of it as close as possible, because it happens to be under the dining room.

I will plan it so that is the turning end like this.

Upstairs the same beam has a wall over it so not such a deal for getting close to it.

Update on the screws. They are the bomb! I can quickly drill on through where ever needed in a custom location or from cutting pieces. All threads with no stupid sheet metal drill section means they grab nicely. On setting 1 on the 18V Milwaukee they do not spin out easily. On the little 12V they hammer a bit, safe and predictable.

@hot_rod

where did you get those corrugated magnet wrist bands? The ones I have are smooth and I think yours probably holds screws nicer.

We do a lot of magnet stick pick up from the dropped screws.

hot_rod

I had a pair of SilverBack fingerless gloves with a magnetic back that worked well also. They finally rotted away and came apart. The combination of wrist band and gloves loads you up with an hours worth of ammo :)

RascalOrnery

I put up those thin flashing typew with Staples and screws and all it did was make pinch points and everything else an air gap. I ended up solving it by cutting furring strips to short length to sandwich to the subfloor, also helps prevent downward loss.

skyking1

@hot_rod I made a little pocket tool for putting up extrusion by myself.

1/2" dowel, drilled it and put a screw 'handle' in it.

Sanded a flat on it.

It will hold up one end for me, and I use a gauge block to set the other and get a screw in it.

Come back, put a screw there and then rotate the dowel till the flat is vertical and it comes out easily.

Big shout out to Radiant Design and Supply in Bozeman. I have spoken to several different people there, and will not single out anyone because they have all been great and helpful.

I came up 32 pieces short and they are sending 32 pieces, not two boxes of 20.

They had some seconds with minor surface corrosion from outside storage. I do not care what it looks like once the sheet rock is up. That saved me some money. They are also loaning me the air hammer to put the tubing in the channel.

My 2720 SF home will have 2850 LF of extrusion, once I omit closet floors and the staircase and elevator shaft and under cabinets, bathtub, etc. I have 4000' of PEX coming.

My plan is to work the loops under ~200' total length as best I can. My first floor will get 2x6 manifolds, and the 2nd floor will get 2x4. The up and down manifolds are co-located in the same closets at either end of the house.

This will minimize deadheading, With the 3/8" I get to buy a few more manifold ports. This is not a big deal to me, as you all turned me on to ODR and letting it run, and not monkeying around with bunches of thermostats and zone control valves. That is where the money is at.

The east and west end bays are tight because they include the 2x6 wall above. I could have cheaped out there but it was a natural to put in two tight runs under those windows. Every full joist space has two runs.

EBEBRATT-Ed

What about the lath screws or the little screws they use on metal studs?

skyking1

They lose some threads on the drilling portion. These screws are sharp and designed for wood.

https://www.homedecorhardware.com/hf-010-82-963.html

Note, I paid 19.31 a box. The price went up.

skyking1

We have 3 loops up today. We may not be good, but we're slow.

I created a route by cutting a notch in the end of this beam. Most people would have kittens over that, but when I ran the beam calculations in BCCalc, I only specified 3.5" of bearing and the framer put it all on there because he's a framer. One of those arses also test fired few bullets into the end of it just to test the shooty thing. I ran the whole scenario past the AHJ before notching.

I get to comb out 5 tubes in there and protect it all from the sheet rock guys. What will really happen is I will put that rock up myself.

This is the landing on the way to the basement with convenient stand up manifold. I will bring 6 or 7 from floor 1 and another little manifold with 4 from floor 2. That wall is a filler to fix a bust when I designed and layed out the elevator pit. The bearing wall is beyond it. I did have a chase beyond that but I quickly took that candy wall over as my playground. Waste not want not.

when looping through, I have a few tubing crosses where it will touch and make sounds. What is the strategy there? I was thinking a figure 8 zip tie standoff, like we do in aviation.

The 3/8" has been a dream to work with. First two runs were about 210' to make it work.

We are using the uncoiler from work.

hot_rod

There are hole charts for TJI also.

https://www.weyerhaeuser.com/woodproducts/document-library/document_library_detail/tj-9015/

Does that pex squeak when you rub pieces together. Some pex with the external O2 barrier can be noisy. Certain brands put an additional PE layer over the EVOH O2 barrier to take the noise out.

The uncoiler is a good place to test for squeaks :)

skyking1

more clicky than squeaky.

What about zip tie standoff where the tubes are touching? I could also tie it away from the other.

Most of it I was able to just dodge the other tube, but a couple are ornery that way.

I have used the charts but prefer BCCalc for the Boise Cascade products and ForteWeb for Weyerhaeuser.

The first floor and roof joists are BCI, but floor 2 had to go with TJI because BCI did a dumb thing with regard to cantilevers.

Weyerhaeuser has simple requirements for a 4' cantilever and I have one out the back that connects to the carport sundeck.

In the first floor I was able to contain all the ducting in the joists and have a flat lid down there, by using the software. It is simpler to punch the holes on the computer and model them in the software, than it is to chase around the hole rules charts.

This hole is at 88% of the allowable shear value. I made templates and cut holes with a plunge router.

It took time to load ducts as we went and it drove the framer nuts, but I was paying the bills.

The results are worth it to me, to not have a trunk dangling down the whole length of the lid.

Not to have any flex in my house, anywhere. Not for dryer ducts or fart fans either. I pre-loaded all that too as we went.

We got 7 loops and 1370' loaded by end of day. The main bathroom I ran it short at 165' to allow for the towel rack(s).

I have no idea if that was sufficient, I have not picked out any yet but my gut said lighten up on that loop.

hot_rod

It sounds like you have the tools to do the structural analysis. Around here the inspectors refer to the charts the manufacturers provide. If there is a question they require a sign off from the I-joist manufacturer.

Interestingly they can "engineer" a fix for most butchered lumber.

Sometimes some thin walled pipe insulation can be used to keep the pex from rubbing against one another. 3/8 wall or even the 1/4" tape wrap type.

skyking1

The software is free to use. For Boise Cascade:

Bccalc.com

Weyerhaeuser:

Forteweb.com

Both of those are cloud apps that keep your project for you and are browser based. Nothing fancy required, I use a cheap chromebook to do my work.

My AHJ is quite happy with the engineering reports it creates.

Here is a screenshot of part of the 2 page PDF it creates.

Note the hole 1 allowable shear at 76.4%. It is 8x16

Now look at the snippet from Boise's charts and tables:

Maximum hole size using the charts and tables is 8x15. Boise points you at their software for big holes because it does it right.

I used it to analyze the deflection, and then I upgraded a few spans to make a uniform user experience.

My wife has bad arthritis and tile or lightweight concrete over PEX would not be the best. She will do better on a live floor.

The Forteweb software is very similar in how it works. You can punch a bunch of holes on the computer and validate them, or move them when it kicks out a failed report. I find it faster than the charts and certainly can put more and bigger holes through with it.

hot_rod

I am working on my shop addition currently. I am getting beams and TJI sized. My AHJ requires a licensed engineer stamp the calcs, regardless if they are from a beam/ joist manufacturer quick sheet, or their own engineering software. It is nice to run some what-if examples before sending it off to the engineer.

It amazes me how large of an opening you can safely put in engineered I-joists!

I've been in a few homes with over-spanned or compromised floor joists. A springy floor is one of my pet peeves :(

skyking1

Too springy is no good at all. We have enough "give" to help my wife's joints.

If I were given a do-over, I would move to the 14" deep joists and really change nothing else.

It would take 2" from the basement headroom, which is almost 8'6" as it is.

The roof insulation would be that much better and I could have used more square ductwork.

That span report above is rated at L/670, which is just short of what I would use for large format tile.

I had to upsize two models of joist on the longest span to get a similar feel. I could figure that out with the programs.

hot_rod

I didn't know until recently that there were so many choices in TJIs. Is it possible to go up from a 110 to a 360 instead of going with a deeper version? I suppose that is where the software helps decide.

My last build, just coming out of Covid had TJI 210 speced. They were hard to find so the lumber yard substituted a different brand, same price that had a higher spec. The wider top cord is helpful for nailing :)

skyking1

"The wider top cord is helpful for nailing :)"

100% that, and also the subfloor is just stronger when it has more contact and less span. Glue does more on a big contact too.

The bigger joists will span a little more, yes. For the money though, "go deep for cheap" when you can.

I am putting the 3.5" wide ones on the carport/sundeck, on 12" centers. That leaves only 8.5" of subfloor span.

I backed myself into the 11 7/8" with my design and I am spanning 23' .

You can see the hangers mounted on the ledger, the sheeting is over the tops of those.

Those two doors open out onto the sundeck and the cantilever leads down the north side to a private entrance to another bedroom.

Due to many deck failures, they changed the national codes for deck loads to 60 PSF in 2018, I think.

With those 560 joists, dead load deflection is 0.100".

Add 34,560 pounds of drunken frat boys for the 60 PSF load, and it deflects another 0.600".

Typical frat boy of 200 pounds, that would be 172.8 lads of load. It is really the wrong bandaid for the problem. These decks always fail at the ledger attachment to the house. Done wrong, flashed wrong, they rot and pull off or fail in some other manner.

My ledger is a part of the structure itself. It can't get away.

It did have a slight set to it so I put my foot on it while Brandon shot some big ledgerlocks into it.

skyking1

One more loop to go under the first floor and then up to the 60% second floor. We won't finish it tomorrow but we will scare it. I have only peeled out about 30' for a screw-up on a duct register placement.

By going all in on the ODR and no zone control, the loop design on the fly is relatively simple. I can still zone a few rooms easily but I'd rather set the flows and just let it eat. The main floor is a bunch of open concept that really lends itself to no zoning.

I have kept to the 200' number with only a couple of 210's and the rest are under. With no glycol to bog it down it will run OK.

I plan on running a single set of 1" supply and return to the west manifolds with a total of 11 loops over there. First to the 7 port for floor 1 and then up to the 4 port for floor 2.

East manifolds the same deal with 5 down and 4 up.

One more 1" load set to the 6 loops in the slab.

I can either loop down below a manifold for floor 2 located below, or put a hatch in a closet at one end and in a common room wall at the other.

If anybody read this far, is it a good thing to have the manifold situated above the loops every time? It seems that it would purge air more readily and over the long run. A small steel hatch is not a big deal for me, behind a chair or sofa.

skyking1

bring those manifolds 3' above the floor and loops marked by the red arrows.

hot_rod

No need to elevate the manifolds for performance. It is more about ease of working on or adjusting them.

I have seen them mounted horizontally under a floor in a ceiling access panel.

If the manifolds have auto air vents, then the need to be mounted upright.

A good microbubble air purger at the heat source does most of the work once you do a purge and get all loops flowing.

I would certainly zone, or have the ability to zone rooms like that sunroom, if that 6-0 window gets a lot of solar gain.

skyking1

Thank you Bob. I will keep them together then.

I do have good zoning set up but I will not plop zone control valves and controls all over. I will try modulating with a combination of trimming flows and ventilating out to the common area from that sunroom.

Looking at that image above, the sunroom is a loop and shares another loop over to that closet. Bedroom 2 and bathroom 4 are two loops that would zone nicely. To the right, the common room is two loops that are zone-able.

I will bury low voltage wire where it is appropriate for a zone control/t-stat, and dig it out if it warrants it.

The rest of bedroom 3 is two loops.

Primary bedroom is two loops + one half bay on the entry loop. That kept me from deadheading out there.

Primary bath is a single.

Guest bath and hall area are another, and living room and kitchen are 4 that are all under 200' of tube each. it splits at that bearing wall line with the beam below.

West end of the entry is a loop, and the hall portion and the craft room are 3 loops.

As suggested I omitted the extrusions under that island and the cabinets and pantry. That is an area where I would like a more tactile heat, and with all those missing extrusions it will not see much of a temperature drop across the loop.

The east manifolds are in that chase in the closet.

skyking1

I have a total of 11 (3/8) loops at the west manifolds. Do I need to make 2x home runs of 1" to the heat pump, or can I run a single 1" and tee it there?

It is about 5.5 GPM, about 38' of run.

skyking1

We got 3 out of the remaining 4 loops up and came up a bit short. I could have spliced a 50' rem on the 150' I had and made it, but I don't like the idea of restricting a loop that is already out there at 200'.

I ordered 500' and will have a decent rem for the next project.

The sunroom was every bit as much fun as we imagined. It has a lifted lid section crossways to the joists, it is out there isolated from any good access, and it burned up 227' gross and 220' net when I get it terminated.

skyking1

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