System 2000, nearly double the cost of Weil McLain, is it worth it?
I live in NY State in an old drafty house with high heating demand. My Weil McLain Gold boiler is only 14 years old but has started leaking between the sections. My service guy says this is a common problem and it needs to be replaced.
He's offering a new Weil McLain as a drop-in replacement, and he says they've corrected the gasket defect that leads to premature failure. But he recommends a System 2000 instead, for almost twice the cost. He says it will last for decades, and the oil consumption is so much lower that we'll make up the cost difference within two years.
Is he blowing smoke, or does the System 2000 really use that much less oil? And if we decide to go with the cheaper option, has Weil McLain definitely fixed the gasket issue?
One other piece of info: we recently installed a new heat pump water heater so I have no need for DHW through the boiler. He told me that the Weil McLain should still be run at a low temperature year-round to prevent excessive contraction/expansion. Could the System 2000 be safely shut down for the summer without affecting its lifespan?
Comments
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No pricing allowed, so edit please.
Do you have the CP number? There might be a prorated warranty on the block.
But yes, the System 2000 is that much better. And yes, it can sit all summer. Even the GO can sit.
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Thank you, I'll check the warranty status when I get home. My guy says that a summer shutdown is supposed to be ok but he's seen it shorten the lifespan and he doesn't recommend it.
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HVACNUT is on the money. A replacement W.M. is cut and slide, nothing gained but cheaper. We have installed EKs for 15 years, big savings for customers. I love 'em.
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We liked EK boilers, but when we were doing residential work we found the manufacturer impossible to deal with, so we never offered them.
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EKs are good but
"It will make up the cost difference in savings in 2 years"
I doubt that.
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You're right about that… based on last year's oil consumption, we'd need an 85% reduction in oil usage to cover the cost in two years. So that's obviously not going to happen. But if we can get a 34% reduction then it will pay for itself in 5 years, which I'd be ok with. If the reduction is less than 17% then the payoff is more than 10 years and that definitely doesn't work for me.
Using 1/3 less oil sounds pretty extreme. Is that actually realistic?
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I find that hard to believe. Can you give some examples? Tech Support saved my butt a few days ago. And I only waited 2 minutes. I didn't go into a que hole for 3 hours and need to have model and serial numbers of everything before I was connected. I'm also pretty sure my Territory Manager covers your area, and there couldn't be a nicer guy. So justification is needed.
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@riny said:
Using 1/3 less oil sounds pretty extreme. Is that actually realistic?
I'm not a heating pro, but I am a mechanical engineer who has done a fair amount of number-crunching on boiler efficiency in general, and in particular on the two Weil McLain boilers heating our 4-unit condo building near Boston. And IMO the answer is no, expecting a 33% reduction in oil use from an EK without DHW is not realistic in your situation. If your boiler is cold start like ours, it's probably running at around 70-75% overall efficiency, including combustion and latent heat of vapor losses. A non-condensing EK boiler might get you up to 80% overall efficiency, so let's give it the benefit of the doubt and say you'd get 10% better efficiency. You are absolutely not going to get 33% improvement, and IMO you're not even going to get 17% improvement.
So don't believe whoever is blowing sunshine up your butt. EK's are great boilers and can save big $$ in certain situations, but yours is not one of them.
And by the way, our two Weil McLains are 30+ years old, still in good condition, and we let them sit idle all summer.
I live in NY State in an old drafty house…
If I were you, I'd start there. Even if you do install an expensive EK boiler, you'll still have a drafty old house. I would buy the Weil McLain and spend the money you saved on air sealing the house first. For example, having the old windows professionally weatherstripped with spring bronze seals along the sash sides and silicone rubber bulb seals at sash tops, bottoms, and parting rails. Or consider replacement windows. Then insulation in attic and walls.
Your real problem is that your house is leaking heat like a sieve. Once you fix that, even the Weil McLain will run less often and save you money.
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@riny, thank you for your comments. Please PM me or call us at 908 735-2066 to connect you with your territory manager to facilitate work with your contractor; Energy Kinetics should not be 2X the cost of a WM.
@jesmed1, take a look at the Department of Energy lab studies here which analyses actual field performance with details as to why savings are much greater that shown with AFUE alone for Energy Kinetics low mass boilers with thermal purge. Field tests from the National Oilheat Research alliance showed average savings of 25% when upgrading older systems, with some savings exceeding 40%.
We typically receive very high marks for customer service and contractor support, so I'm not sure where @Long Beach Ed is coming from (thank you for your post @HVACNUT !).
Sorry for the short reply, I only had a minute.
Best,
Roger
President
Energy Kinetics, Inc.1 -
Get him to put that in writing! I'll bet you don't see the difference in 2 years. 3 - 5 maybe.
It's still worth it BUT…..
Tightening the envelop has a greater return on investment. Then you can get a smaller boiler that you might see the savings promised.
Has an accurate heat load loss been done? Get it done.
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Weighing in as a home improvement contractor with many years experience dealing with much older homes in NY and MA. (FYI: My own house was built in the late 1700s in the Catskills, and she has gone from an energy hog to an energy-efficient house).
If you really wish to reduce your heating costs, follow any recommendations to deal with the heating load of your house. Load reducing improvements always offer the best bang for the buck (and most are permanent).
Reducing air leakage is easily the best bang for the buck.Start with a home energy audit. The best time to have one done is in the colder months.
Swinging hammers and fitting pipe…bringing the dream to life
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If you are going to stay in that house for a while an upgrade in more efficient equipment is not a bad idea. Don't forget to factor in the cost of financing or loss in potential investment returns when calculating you return on investment.
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A slight of hand often used here is comparing a NEW install to an OLD boiler. So you can save a good bit vs an old boiler installed poorly. But a new boiler installed correctly will not be much more thirsty than an EK.
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@Hot_water_fan, please take a look at the study. New boilers are included. As a quick reference point, the 87.5 AFUE low mass with thermal purge actually had a higher annual efficiency than the 95 AFUE modulating condensing boiler. I like your choice of words, many dealers comment that System 2000 "sips" fuel in comparison to others that are "thirsty,"
Another advantage of low idle loss boilers (low mass and thermal purge) is that there is virtually no oversizing penalty, so weatherizing after installing still can have good benefits and the boiler will still run at nearly the same annual efficiency.
Roger
President
Energy Kinetics, Inc.
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Thank you, @Hot_water_fan . Idle loss is a characteristic of boilers and has particular relevance with oversizing impacts, load profiles, and annual efficiency. Steady state thermal efficiency and idle loss together provide very good insight into how boilers will perform in the field, so I would say that the study is very relevant and important for making and informed decision.
Roger
President
Energy Kinetics, Inc.1 -
@Roger thank you for responding, I'll call into the office on Monday to discuss and perhaps get a referral for another estimate!
@ILikeEmOlder you're 100% right, and actually we did a home energy audit a few months ago. We already did phase 1 of their recommendations (rim joist insulation in the basement, and spray foam under an addition with an uninsulated floor). We're planning to do the next major step which is attic insulation and whole-house air sealing (doors/windows/gaps/cracks) but we weren't expecting the boiler to spring a leak this year. So unfortunately the insulation budget might get redirected into the boiler. It would be great if we could do both but it will depend on the finances.
@Hot_water_fan I don't have all of this year's usage in front of me, but here's a list of last year's deliveries which I compiled for the energy audit. This year should be mostly the same, but hopefully we'll get some reduction from the insulation work that we already did, and more in the future if we can do the rest of the work!
2023/08/08: 155.6 gallons
2023/11/18: 161.5
2023/12/23: 212.1
2024/01/18: 204.9
2024/02/08: 183.3
2024/02/29: 152.3
2024/04/03: 165.10 -
@riny your location and sq ft would also help in assessing your envelope performance.
But at first glance, your total oil usage of 1235 gallons per season is close to what we burn in a season for a 4800 sq ft, 4-unit "house" built in the 1930's in the Boston area, where we have around 5600 HDD's per year.
Our design heat loss is 15-20 BTU/hr/sq ft at zero degrees outside air temp. So if you were our neighbor in a house half the size (2400 sq ft), your heat loss would be double ours at 30-40 BTU/hr/sq ft. Which is pretty bad.
But I'm guessing you may live in a colder zone.
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I had only one experience with installing an EK before I retired. The proud owner of a EK 2000 was converting to gas, and the Oil fired system was only about 6 years old. I was offered the used boiler at a great price, and My Customer Service Rep was in need of a new boiler. The old Dynotherm was very efficient in its day but it was getting difficult to source parts for the old beast.
The EK2000 cut the fuel bill by 35% from the “properly installed and properly operating efficient Dynotherm”. I felt that the Dynotherm was as efficient as any new Weil McLain would be, and did not expect there to be any measurable savings. Well I was pleasantly surprised with the results. Understanding how the savings were realised gave me a new understanding of “Low Mass" and “Thermal purging” that I never really thought about before.
Sometimes you need to see it to believe it. I know I did, and, @Hot_water_fan , all the “irrelevant” mambo jumbo becomes REAL once you take the time to understand it.
As far as the cost of the WM being so much higher … I believe there may be some warranty left on the WM that might be offsetting the cost of the job, and a push pull is always a faster job than changing the system to accommodate the piping requirements of the EK design. Those two factors could be a major reason for the larger than usual $$$ difference.
You would need more facts to make that call @Roger . Could the contractor be purchasing the block only or the boiler less burner and using all the existing working parts from the old boiler on the replacement boiler. I believe your EK dealers are more on the reputable side of the scale that many of the other competitors might fall. Just my opinion.
Not saying that you are not reputable if you don’t sell EK, Just saying that you seem to hold your dealers to a higher standard in equipment knowledge and training, and that type of contractor is not as likely to be the shady contractor we all want to avoid.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Ed, can you please say what the DHW situation was in that install? Was there a tankless coil or an indirect on the old Dynotherm?
I'm not doubting your observed savings with the EK2000, but if that was replacing a tankless coil or an indirect, that's where the EK seems to give the best efficiency improvement. In this case, the OP has a separate DHW heater, so his efficiency gain with an EK may not be as significant.
I'm still a relative novice here, so I'm still trying to understand everyone's competing efficiency claims. But it does seem in the case of the EK that the 35%-40% efficiency gains are mainly in cases where there was a tankless coil or indirect, and if that wasn't the case to start with, the potential improvement may be more modest.
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Tankless coil. I never liked that idea for DHW so I would attribute about a 15% savings to that change. And would expect that if she purchased a new Weil with an indirect. but the money situation with her was not favorable. I may have replaces the Dyno with a WTGO tankless it that were available under similar circumstances. The Fact that that the EK just happened at the right time was great for her.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@EdTheHeaterMan OK thanks. So in your estimation, maybe 15% of the EK savings may have been due to getting rid of the tankless coil, and the other 20% to the other efficiencies of the EK?
So in the OP's case, where a tankless coil is not involved, if the OP is saving 20% per year on 1235 gallons of oil, at $3.50/gal that's a potential savings of about $850/yr.
I still think a new Weil McLain with no coil is going to be within 10-15% of an EK, so I would peg the probable savings at a lower number, with the 20% as perhaps an upper limit for potential savings in this case, where the homeowner is not replacing a tankless coil or indirect.
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Thanks all, this discussion is very interesting! Our WM was piped with a domestic coil and storage tank. A couple of years ago, the tank started leaking so we removed it and tried living with the coil alone. It was fine most of the time, except when the heat was running. The boiler couldn't make enough heat to cover both the DHW demand and the radiators at the same time, so we were getting cold showers whenever there was a zone running. I reprogrammed the controller to prioritize the coil (with help on a different thread here) but that made our oil usage go way up. So I took advantage of the tax incentive and switched over to a new hybrid water heater. I guess this means I've already realized some of the gains that would be provided by the EK, since it seems to give you the best comparison when doing both.
@jesmed1 sadly no, I'm not going to be any colder than you. I'm in Westchester NY so not out in the snow belt. The house is about 3300 sf. The main part of the house was built sometime between 1790-1812, with one addition put on in 1908 and a second small addition in the 60s. The house was also moved from its original location in the 1890s (yeah, there's a lot of history here) so the seal between the house and the foundation is questionable at best. The rim joist spray insulation project we just did should hopefully correct that. Most of the windows date from the 60s/70s but they're single-pane, and overall the house is just poorly insulated. I fully understand that we're heating all of NY every time the boiler comes on. But two energy consultants both said we'd get a much better ROI from doing insulation work than replacing windows, so that's our focus right now.
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@riny those gallons are from before or after the HPWH?
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@riny said: "The boiler couldn't make enough heat to cover both the DHW demand and the radiators at the same time, so we were getting cold showers whenever there was a zone running."
That was not the fault of the boiler or the coil. That happens when the wrong control logic is implemented. The proper control logic is to have the central heat circulator stop running whenever the boiler temperature falls below the minimum temperature to sustain DHW demand. The plumber that disconnected the storage tank did not understand the control wiring logic for the system you have (had) so you found fault with the oil boiler incorrectly. The fault was with the person who wired the controls incorrectly.
Of course the professional would not admit to this due to not knowing what they don't know, or perhaps wanting to provide a reason for selling a new appliance to fix the problem they created. I can't count on all my fingers and toes the number of incorrectly wired circulators on tankless coil boilers that I have rewired to solve the "Cold Shower" problem with the addition of just 2 wires to existing controls.
Caused many a plumber from selling a new electric water heater over my career.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Before, it's only been about a month and a half with the new WH.
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@riny Very good. Any fuel receipts from this winter post HPWH?
My concern is that between insulation and DHW you'll be in the 800G a year range. That won't pay for an EK. Not saying you shouldn't get one (it's your money, they seem great and Roger is responsive) but that contractor is lying to your face on the investment side. There's a lot of ways to bet on the future price of oil and the future weather which is what effectively is happening, this just isn't a good one.
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Our experience with them was many, many years ago. People change.
There were problems with supply wherein we weren't comfortable selling the product without feeling that we could deliver the boiler. We seemed to be going around in circles with EK on stock, wherein other suppliers were bending over backwards for us, so we moved on. We had cash and we wanted boilers. It seemed simple to us.
But we did believe in the product. We checked it out and we liked it. Simple and reliable. Domestic. We were more than prepared to sell it. Moving forward some 25+ years, those EK boilers are still running, so we were right. They are good boilers. Could have sold many.
Their system of post purge - if I remember correctly - was pretty revolutionary for the time also.
For us, it was simply the road not taken.
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@Hot_water_fan , I'd say that the quiet operation, energy savings, and long life with a system that will pay for itself in savings, is always a good investment. It's also future proof and 100% compatible with Bioheat® Fuel (renewable diesel and biodiesel). When it costs less to own and you will live with the system to deliver quiet comfort with a proven life of 30+ years, it's also a comforting solution. There is a "downside," though - there is no large hot burner door to throw off heat in the boiler room to feed that HPWH; the upside is that there's no draft regulator to vent that same uncontrolled waste heat out of the house, either (the heat energy savings are much more important, on both fronts).
Roger
President
Energy Kinetics, Inc.1 -
, I'd say that the quiet operation, energy savings, and long life with a system that will pay for itself in savings, is always a good investment.
You, of course, are a bit biased. No issue with that. However, if you recall, the OP was looking at a cost for the EK equipment at 2X compared with WMC.
You directed him to some other individual who might help him and claimed that 2X makes no sense.
How about you explain where the 2X comes from and the HH group might believe what you are promoting?
Furthermore, without DHW, all of the claims of 30% savings are patently invalid.
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I'd say that the quiet operation, energy savings, and long life with a system that will pay for itself in savings, is always a good investment.
@Roger i think the quiet operation is great. I think EK is great. But on what basis are you claiming it’ll “pay for itself”? An EK may never pay for itself. That’s fine, but let’s not claim it will or that alone is a good thing (ie a 20 year payback doesn’t excite me).
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Thank you, @LRCCBJ - you're always good for comic relief!
In my first post in this thread, I said that there is no way that the price should be 2X and that we'd work with @riny , the contractor, and our territory manager to sort things out. Low idle loss delivers great savings, DHW is not a magical heat load, although the small frequent calls in warm weather are a great target for energy savings.
@Hot_water_fan , if the savings were only 150 gallons per year at $4.00 per gallon, that's $18,000 over 30 years. With energy cost inflation at a 2% annual rate, compounding would bump that number up to over $24,000. Interesting comment that a 20 year payback doesn't excite you - that's a simple 5% tax free return on investment (no compounding), and even higher as savings increase further with inflation.
Roger
President
Energy Kinetics, Inc.0 -
@Roger that involves someone staying in one place for 20 years just to break even vs putting the same after tax money into another tax advantaged investment (401k, IRA, etc) without that restriction. The duration is 1 hang up, 2 is future weather and 3 is future fuel prices.
Ha I think it’s a funny part of our modern age that all sort of purchases now become “investments”. Haircuts, shiny fridges, boilers, etc. Why can’t we just buy things?
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Thank you all, this thread has been incredibly helpful and I don't want to start an argument! :-)
I'm going to get additional estimates for both options (@Roger I will get in touch with you for a referral), and I like everything I'm hearing about the EK. Given the state of the house though, and a limited budget, it sounds like it might make more sense to save money on the boiler and make the biggest possible investment in the insulation / airflow improvements. But I'll need to really work the numbers and then decide.
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@riny Based on your numbers, your envelope heat loss is not bad for a 200-year old house with later additions. I figure your heat loss is around 18 BTU/hr/sq ft, which is decent for an old house, and with improvements you can probably get to 15 BTU/hr or lower, which would be very good.
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I'll keep it simple guys, 48 years in the field, installation and 24/7/365 service. We installed EKs for 15 years, over 1000, maybe 2000. 100% customer satisfaction. When you deal with oil customers on a service contract you hear it if ANYTHING is wrong. Even replacements of fairly modern low mass boilers (WM468, Peerless ect03,4, et al), have had substantial fuel savings. Tech support has always been excellent, though rarely needed. These are the facts men.
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Thank you, @LRCCBJ - you're always good for comic relief!
In my first post in this thread, I said that there is no way that the price should be 2X and that we'd work with @riny , the contractor, and our territory manager to sort things out. Low idle loss delivers great savings, DHW is not a magical heat load, although the small frequent calls in warm weather are a great target for energy savings.
Glad you enjoyed it.
You did state that the price should not be 2X.
But you miss the point. Why should any potential customer get a proposal that is 2X WMC? Having to go to the President of the Company to get the price adjusted to a reduced level is usually a non-starter for most customers. And for you to simply state that the territory manager will fix it…………what about all the potential customers who are not aware of the President or the Territory Manager and simply go elsewhere based upon the proposals that they receive?
Therein lies your problem (if it is prevalent). It's not the equipment which is clearly superior.
Oh, and BTW, in your calculation for the return on investment, you carefully ignore the lost income on the "investment" of the boiler and the system. Subtract 5% per year on the potential $ installed cost. But, I'm quite sure you are thoroughly aware of this.
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The only issue that I see here is the entity that quoted a ridiculous EK price. My experience has shown that customers recoup the price differential, depending on circumstances of course, in 2 to 4 years. After that is money in the bank and a good selling point for a future home buyer.
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Let's say the customer saves 300g per year (generous if I do say so). Three years @ 3.50/g. $3150. saved. With a typical installation, the premium on EK can only be 25% to break even. Well worth it.
What you cannot answer is how many customers are receiving a quotation that is 25% above the competition and how many are receiving a quotation that is 100% above the competition. The former is clearly an immediate purchase by an informed consumer (of which there are a limited number)…………the latter is non-starter for just about everyone.
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I have no problem if people choose to buy premium products for premium prices. But the potential installer’s blatant dishonesty about savings is a bad look.
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