Where can a get an old style compression tank
I'm starting a project on installing hydronic heating in my house and have a boiler on its way and a collection of salvaged cast iron radiators.
Ideally I would like a tank I can maintain rather than replace every couple years. Does anyone still make those style of tanks and if so where do I look?
Located in durham NC.
Comments
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Great product, fast service.
Add a B&G Airtrol and you're good to go.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
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R.E.Michel carries this type of tank. What size do you need?
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
The Amtrol Pro has a 7 year warranty, a lined tank. It should last 15- 20 years properly installed and maintained.
If you need to replace tanks every two years, it's not the tank :)
For a compression tank to work as designed you need the Airtrol fittings and ideally a site glass.
Horse and buggy technology
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
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You do not need a sight glass and I wouldn't recommend one. The level is set through the Airtrol.
60+ year service lifetime is a win- horse & buggy notwithstanding. 😉
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
Call Cheney Plumbing in Carbondale, CO. He has an excess of brand new ones, several sizes. Trenton 970-379-4222.
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These tanks are still made, I have a 15 gallon B+G steel compression tank with a sight glass and it has provided us with a large volume of water/1/3 air 2/3 water for the point of no pressure change without fail for the last 10 years.
I have a B+G airtrol in the bottom tapping and a B&G Internal air separator mounted on the coal stoker boiler to deliver any air bubbles to the B+G Airtrol valve and I have enjoyed not having crawl around on artificial knees to bleed the 225 feet of 3/4" fin tube baseboard in my system.
Once you install a steel compression tank with the sight gauge, Internal air separator and Airtrol valve you fill the system and then drain the excess water out of the tank, you shut the water fill valve off and you do not need to add water ever unless you have to drain the boiler down for a repair.
The B+G steel compression tank is made by Wessels Tank Company.
You can obtain these tanks from any B+G plumbing supplier.
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B&G still makes them. You can buy a lifetime supply of bladder tanks for what it will cost you.
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Wasn't this the fight that they were having in the 70's when @DanHolohan started working for b&g?
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Umm. No. More like within $50. But I don't buy B$G branded tanks.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
looks like a 15 gallon compression tank is about $700. the 2 gallon bladder tank that would replace it is about $50.
now i understand why the 2 gallon bladder tank is a #15 and the 4 gallon is a #30 etc. it is to correspond to the old compression tanks.
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$700! Nuts. I paid under 3.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
I dispose of the old style tanks all the time even tho they are not shot, when we redo heating systems. I almost feel bad doing so but the airtrol valve alone costs a lot more than a good expansion tank ( I almost never see the proper airtrol type fittings on these old tanks). Some times the old tanks are too big and in a lousy location for a neat redo also.
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I got my Airtrol tank fitting new on eBay for $49. And it's not that hard to measure the tank diameter first, read the Airtrol instructions, and then buy the right size for the tank.
I installed mine a year ago with help from the pros here and plumbed it with correctly pitched 3/4" copper to replace the horizontal 1/2" copper that had been installed originally.
Since then it's worked perfectly and we no longer have air in our radiators. And it helps that I learned (also here) to ask our boiler techs not to drain and refill the compression tank as they had been doing annually, which was adding dissolved air to the system.
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I guess ebay is one thing but the smallest airtrol at Supplyhouse is $163 + tax. The ex-30pro tank is $83.
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“For a compression tank to work as designed you need the Airtrol fittings and ideally a site glass.”
Agree, and future techs won’t know what to do with it.
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Unless you adapt a microbubble air separator to send air back to the compression tank, the airtrol boiler fitting won't do as good a job of moving the smallest air bubbles out of the flow. It will still flow but there will be some pockets of air that won't get removed they way they would with a microbubble separator.
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That's how B&G specs it now. IAS /EAS to Airtrol. They don't even sell Airtrol boiler fittings anymore. WM has an air sep built in, I think Peerless too.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
The small micro bubbles go in an out of solution every time the flame hits the boiler wall.
The ramp purger or a single boiler section doesn't have any means to capture and remove those, almost invisible bubbles.
With todays thin metal boilers it is more important to remove all the types of air for efficiency and longevity.
No harm in doing that with a cast boiler also. If a goal is to maximize efficiency and limit corrosion.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
With a compression tank you will always have to drain water from the tank at some point. The difference in temperature between the boiler and the tank will always cause air and water to migrate over time even if it is set up properly.
That is why compression tanks have tank drainers.
I had an Amtrol bladder tank in my house for33 years before it needed replacement.
Oversizing the bladder tank causes less pressure rise and reduces the stress on the tank. + bladder tank are a lot smaller for a given system.
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Yes, and thanks to @EdTheHeaterMan for telling me about the built-in air separators in our Weil McLains. That's something I would never have known, because obviously you can't see how the insides of the castings are configured. And I couldn't find any schematics or cartoons of those separators in the Weil McLain literature even after Ed told me about them. So unless you know, you'd never know…if that makes any sense.
The other factor that was probably not helping our air separation was our low supply water temps. I've since programmed a night setback into our ecobees, so now the morning boiler runs last 60+ minutes and get the water good and hot, which should help bubble the air out inside the boilers.
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I have the water fill valve shut off on my system and should be shut off after filling it and I have not had to drain water from my system in 9 years.
Both sizes of Airtrol fittings and the full line of Internal Air Separators are still available according to Bell and Gossett.
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How many people make a decision based on a 60 year lifespan tank? How many on this list plan on being in their home 60 years from now?
There is no question that a properly sized and install compression tanks works. I highly doubt the air removal function is anywhere close to the 95% plus efficiency of a microbubble air sep.
So 60 years worth of a less efficient, much more costly, large heat loss tank, hmmmm? Giddy up.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream2 -
I will eventually join the 21st century and get an oversized bladder tank, like an SX-40V or SX-60V for our two high water volume gravity conversion systems, but I'm waiting until one of our boilers bites the dust so that we can replumb everything all at once.
Meanwhile, for me, the Airtrol was a cheap, quick upgrade from a largely non-functional air management system to one that's maybe 75% (?) efficient (I need one of Paul's sight glasses to verify that number!) The 100% efficient system will have to wait a while longer.
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Of course you need the special fitting with the partition that keeps hot water from circulating up there if you want the air to stay in it which also mostly mitigates the heat loss.
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Hello Bob,
I made my purchase decision based on my past experience with an open to air saddle tank that was in place for 33 years previous to this that worked with no issues and no bleeding of the fin tube baseboard.
There is no question my system works and works well, the only time I hear air bubbles is when the coal stoker is fired up for the heating season. My only problem is I do not have cast iron 6 tube radiators to increase my thermal mass to store more heat.
I have not noticed that my Wessels steel compression tank sheds little if any heat. The steel tank is not hot to the touch.
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I'm 21 years old. It's quite possible I may be here for that long if I don't have kids which I'm not planning on.
Located in durham NC.
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How do you size your's?
Located in durham NC.
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Several factors go into this: boiler size, type of radiation, etc. I have one of these books that contains the method, but not in front of me- besides, you'll want your own copy. You may need to copy and paste the link:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=bell+%26+gossett+handbook&_sacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p4432023.m570.l1313
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting2 -
You can also play with this online calculator. You'll need to know your total water volume, min and max water temps, and min and max desired water pressure.
For example, in my case we have about 100 gallons water, min temp 65 (for a cold start boiler), max temp 160, 18 psi cold and 22 psi hot. When you input that and press "calculate", you get a recommended compression tank size of 40 gallons, which is what we have.
It also gives you recommended sizes for bladder and diaphragm tanks, which you can ignore if you're planning on using a compression tank. Obviously your variables will depend on your system design, but you should be able to calculate your water volume based on boiler volume, piping volumes, and radiator volumes.
Min and max temps will depend on whether or not your boiler is cold start (minimum), and the balance between your boiler output and your radiation output at a given temperature. For worst-case sizing, you could just assume the the max water temperature will be the upper limit of the boiler setting (eg 180 degrees for a typical high limit aquastat setting).
Pressures are also somewhat subjective. You'll want at least 12 psi minimum. I run ours higher at 18 psi to help keep the air from bubbling out in second-floor radiators. And you don't want the maximum pressure to get near your 30 psi relief valve setting. An allowable pressure rise of 4-5 psi or so will keep you from getting close to that. So in your case you might want to start with a 12 psi minimum and a 17 psi maximum, for example.
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