Can you combine Energy Kinetics with Rheem hot water tank?

SecondEmpireHouse

I have a house in Western Massachusetts and need to replace the Weil-McLain oil boiler which was installed in 1991. I also have an electric 85 gallon Rheem Marathon Commercial domestic hot heater that was installed in 2020.

The house has 6,200 square feet which includes the unfinished basement. The first, second and third floor of the house where we live is about 4,500 sqf. There are 4 to 6 people who live at the house. The house has very good insulation but the windows are original one pain glass. The storm windows were installed in 1970. I consume around 1,500 to 2,000 gallons of oil a season. The electric bill runs $300-$400 a month. I think the Rheem consumes a lot of electricity and then the dehumidifier in the basement also drives up the electric bill.

I am inclined to replace the Weil-McLain oil boiler with an Energy Kinetics boiler.

And I’m impressed with how the leadership of Energy Kinetics participates in the discussion on this website!

Here is my question. Is there a way the Energy Kinetics boiler can be mated to the Rheem domestic hot water system? Would that save money on installation and on operating costs? During the heating season domestic hot water would be produced by the boiler which is always on to heat the house. But during the summer when the house does not have to be heated, would it be more cost effective to have the Rheem generating the hot water?

The other option I’m exploring is getting an Energy Kinetics oil boiler and replacing my current Rheem boiler with a heat pump hot water heater for domestic water.

Does an oil boiler that heats the house and heats domestic water cost less to run than a oil boiler that heats the house and an efficient heat pump for domestic hot water?

Is it possible to have an Energy Kinetics oil boiler connected to an efficient heat pump for domestic hot water? Would there be any advantages to this? In the winter domestic hot water is created by Energy Kinetics boiler, and in during non-heating season, the heat pump creates domestic hot water.

Finally, has anyone seen an animation of how Energy Kinetics boilers actually work? I’ve seen all the photographs but I can’t figure out where the water in the boiler flows.

SuperTech

The way the Energy Kinetics boilers produce hot water is extremely efficient due to the use of the brazed plate heat exchanger and the way it uses two circulators to transfer heat from the boiler to the hot water storage tank. Also the low mass of the boiler and the thermal purge feature of the energy manager ensures that as much of the heat created by the fuel you are burning is transferred to with the space you are heating or the hot water storage tank. It's a very slick and well designed system. I would love to have one in my own home. The design of the hot water storage tank also plays a part in the efficiency of the system. I don't know how easily you would be able to convert a different tank to work in the same manner.

I can't comment on what option for producing hot water would be best for you. It depends on fuel costs, electric rates and how much hot water you use. All I can say is that I never get any complaints from my customers about the efficiency of the EK systems. No complaints about running out of hot water either.

SecondEmpireHouse

Thanks a lot for this input SuperTech…. How many Energy Kinetic combi systems have you installed and in what part of the US?

Is it possible to know how many gallons of oil it would take to heat water for 4 showers a day for one month during the non heating season?

mattmia2

i bet most of your electricity goes to all the stuff in the 4k ft^2 house and water heating is not a big fraction of it.

Steamhead

@SecondEmpireHouse , we have a customer with an EK Ascent Combi and he says his summer oil consumption is quite low, and he gets plenty of hot water, especially since we set his burner up properly 😎 I don't know how many showers they take though.

This model does not use a tank, but heats the water directly. It's much more sophisticated than a traditional tankless coil setup. If your four daily showers do not happen at the same time, this might be a good way to go. And you could keep your present electric heater as a backup or if you wanted to shut the boiler down in hot weather.

I'd also want to know why your present Weil-McLain needs replacing, so we could head off a similar situation with the replacement boiler.

SecondEmpireHouse

Thanks for this Steamhead! Much appreciated. The Weil-McLain works ok. Every year I have our heating company do the routine maintenance. But it's 32 years old. I've been told by my current heating company that it's too small for the house although I don't know how many BTUs it generates. When I go to the Weil-McLain website and put in the CP number, nothing comes up. So I'm still trying to figure out it's size.

I'm hoping if I get a new, more efficient boiler, and have zones instead of the whole house being one zone, the operating cost will be less. And I want to avoid a situation where the boiler stops working during the heating season and I'm faced with an emergency.

You mentioned the EK Ascent Comb that heats the water directly. Does that make it an on-demand how water heater? Is the difference between the Ascent and System 2000 Frontier is that the Frontier has a tank for domestic hot water?

I like your idea of keeping the Rheem as a back-up but is there a way to turn off not have it deteriorate from lack of use?

Thanks again for your insight!

SuperTech

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1830441#Comment_1830441

My company has installed a handful of Ascent and Ascent + combi boilers and dozens of EK-1 and EK-2 System 2000 boilers in the Mid Hudson Valley NY area.

SecondEmpireHouse

ok thanks a lot…

Steamhead

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1830513#Comment_1830513

Pretty much. Go here for more:

https://energykinetics.com/ascent-combi-boiler/

Regarding your current boiler, on what basis do they say it's too small? Has anyone done a heat-loss calculation on your house? That's the first step in determining boiler size for an existing hot-water system.

Somewhere on your boiler there should be a sticker showing the model and BTU ratings. Post a pic of the boiler here so we can have a look. If the sticker is gone, we might be able to determine its capacity another way.

@SuperTech and others have a lot more experience with EK products than us, but I have to say I'm impressed so far. But even though your W-M is 32 years old, that doesn't necessarily mean it's near death. You really need to have a second opinion- start with @Charlie from wmass .

HVACNUT

I didn't do exact math but an EK-1F with the factory firing rate of .85 GPH will deliver approximately 22 BTU per square ft to the 4,500 sq ft living space. It can be upfired to 1.00 GPH if needed. You can still use the existing water heater, but at 80 gallons, you would need to know the recovery rate with the plate HX. Do the math on hot water use. And you won't be able to Thermal Purge to the water heater. The Manager would need to be programmed to purge to a heat zone. When the 80 gallon tank needs replacement, install the EK tank. The Ascent is a nice boiler, but it's not exactly cold start like the Frontier is. And I believe you were looking for cold start.

hot_rod

two numbers that you need to get a good answer. The heat load for the home and the domestic water needs

With 6 people, the hot water load may exceed the heat load

So the boiler always sizes to the larger load.

As for hot water, how cold is the incoming water, shower head gpm, and how long of a shower?

With a combi, 120,000- 150,000 may be adequate for heating that size home, but 2 gpm of hot water is about max.

So 1 shower at a time, maybe the dishwasher running also.

The manufacturers have charts for sizing, but you need to know which bracket you dhw needs fit into

Keeping a tank to preheat, even to room temperature will offset some of the dhw load

LRCCBJ

But it's 32 years old. I've been told by my current heating company that it's too small for the house although I don't know how many BTUs it generates. When I go to the Weil-McLain website and put in the CP number, nothing comes up. So I'm still trying to figure out it's size.

I'm hoping if I get a new, more efficient boiler, and have zones instead of the whole house being one zone, the operating cost will be less. And I want to avoid a situation where the boiler stops working during the heating season and I'm faced with an emergency.

Too small they say? Might it be possible that their motivation is to simply get you to buy a larger one?

You don't need to go to the Weil-McClain website and find out the output of the current boiler. All you need to do is observe the thermostat on the coldest day of the year (typically around 0°F near you). Can the thermostat maintain the temperature that you have set? Does the boiler shutdown every so often…………maybe once every hour or two? If so, you absolutely do not need, nor should you purchase, a larger boiler. All they do is burn more fuel and cycle more often. You might find that the boiler is TOO LARGE. You can observe this if the boiler is OFF for 15 minutes (or more) every hour when the outdoor temperature is at the design limit.

The boiler doesn't ever "stop working" due to its age. It does require replacement parts at times. Proactive maintenance and the stocking of various parts will minimize the delay of repairing same. The only thing that kills the boiler is if it develops a leak. In most cases, this does NOT prevent it from continuing to operate and heat the building. It just causes water where you don't want it. You can then PLAN to replace it in the next six months should that occur. Of course, you'd need to avoid the panic that will set in if you listen to the first four heating contractors that show up to evaluate it.

Definitely see if @Charlie from wmass will take a look at it for you.

Roger

Thank you for your posts and kind comments, everyone!

@SecondEmpireHouse , based on Department of Energy figures of 64.3 gallons per day, and a 77° temperature rise for domestic hot water production, hot water from an electric tank at $.29/kWh in Massachusetts would cost about $109 per month. The same amount of hot water made with a System 2000 would use about 12 gallons of fuel oil; at $3.50/gallon that would be about $42. Thermal purge means that System 2000 is extremely efficient in the summer and in the winter so you don’t have to worry about the time of year to know that the system and hit water are running efficiently.

If your existing chimney is in good condition, I would recommend a System 2000 for your home to take advantage of thermal purge for all of your heating and an associated tank heated by a plate heat exchanger for hot water. Zoning would give better comfort and control and some added efficiency if you can keep certain zones at cooler temperatures when desired. You could continue to use the electric tank, but it would be more expensive to operate.

Please reach out to us if we can be further help. We can be reached at (908) 735-2066, post here, or PM me if preferred.

Thank you,

Roger.

EdTheHeaterMan

Can you combine Energy Kinetics with Rheem hot water tank

EnerRheemetick ?

That's the best I could come up with

Now if you asked about matching up Imogene Coca with Philippe Cola her name would be

Imogene Coca-Cola

Charlie from wmass

There is no issue integrating the two. System 2000 is not something that I install but a competent installer should be able to use their brazed plate heat exchanger to supply your current tank.

Charlie from wmass

Proper heat loss would need to be computed for boiler size. Depending on where you are in Western Massachusetts and the construction of your home could be anywhere from 35 to 55 btu per square feet.

Kaos

@Charlie from wmass I see these 35 to 55 but/sft coming up. I would really like to see one in the wild as the only way I can see it happening is in uninsulated pole barn.

From the OP's fuel use for example, lets say 1800gallon average. Mass is somewhere around 6000HDD and around lets say 60F design temp delta.

1800gal so about 2500therms.

2500therms/6000hdd/24h=1700BTU/degF

design load:

1700BTU/degF*60F=100kBTU

Assume basement is equivalent to about 1/2 above grade, so lets say 5500SFT total. That is right around 20BTU/sqft, which is what I would expect for an old structure with storm windows.

Greening

We had the System 2000 (EK1 & Riello) with a basic stainless 40 gallon water tank installed in the basement last year. Replaced a very old system.

• Oil consumption dropped a lot. Particularly in the summer (where it only for hot water).
• The system is much quieter than our old system was.
• We subsequently had a fresh air intake installed. That further reduced noise. It increases the boiler's efficiency too. Our real motivation was to prevent indoor conditioned air from being sucked up by the boiler and blown out the chimney (e.g. reduce drafts, improve comfort, reduce heating bills).
• The basement is cooler in the summer, which reduces the need for summer AC (but cooler in the winter as it is an unheated zone).
• The basement might be slightly more humid but haven't measured. It is cooler in the winter and less drafty.

We added 2 upstairs zones as those rooms are kept cold except when visitors are here. That saves money and they can set the temperatures as they like. The cost of those new zones was a few hundred dollars (pex in the basement and "free" smart thermostats from the "state"). Highly recommended.

We did not choose a heat pump for hot water. Electric prices here are very high where we live. These look efficient on paper and provide some free de-humidification and some free summer cooling…but they are cooling the basement in the winter.

We replaced all the heating equipment in the basement, including the tank. The aim was long-term reliability.

SecondEmpireHouse

Thank you one and all for responding to my post. I truly appreciate all this professional advice you have offered.

Streamhead – you raise a good question about how I know the boiler is too small and if anyone has done a heat loss calculation on the house.

The technician who comes to the house every year to clean the boiler and his supervisor who has visited the house have told me the boiler was too small.

No one has done a heat loss study yet. I’m still talking to different contractors and getting ball park estimates for a new system. Once I settle on a contractor then they will put in the time to do such a study. But one contractor proposed I get a Purepro Trio (PROP5ES) and said I needed a boiler rated at 154,000 BTU. I had given him a detailed list of the dimensions of all the radiators and that is how he concluded I need 154K BTU. He said he’d do a more thorough study to really determine what size boiler I needed if I decided to hire him to do the work.

Below are two photos of the boiler. Good to hear you think it’s possible it’s not near death! Thanks again for your help.

HVACNUT – Thank for you for walking me through the calculation of how much how domestic water can be generated with an Ascent and if my Rheem could be coupled with it.

ROD_HOT – Thanks for reinforcing my need to figure out the domestic water load so that can be factored into the system I get.

LRCCBJ – Thanks for the advice on observing the boiler during a very cold day to see how it runs. I will definitely do that. And I will follow up with Charles Garrity!

Roger – Thanks so much for weighing in. I emailed your company last week to ask for the names of certified installers in my neighborhood.

Is there one document that has all the specs of all your different systems? One that has a grid with the names of the boiler at the top and on the side all the different characteristics and BTUs and gallons of domestic water it can generate, etc, etc? It’s really hard to get a grasp of all the options you offer.

I am having trouble figuring out the differences between a Frontier, Ascent and Resolute. All of them are combination systems that generate domestic how water that gets stored in a tank, right? Do they all come in an EK2 size?

I will of course discuss these options with the installer I hire but I’d like to be well informed.

If my contractor suggests I get a Frontier, Resolute or Ascent Plus, will these systems be able to provide enough domestic hot water for the house while heating the house? (A house with 6 people living in it. The house has 8 bed rooms. It's a very grand house.) Would getting a 80 gallon tank instead of 40 gallon tank help? Is the water in the 40 or 80 gallon tank always kept at a constant state of 120 degrees or whatever temperature one sets?

I read in your literature that the EK1 Frontier can generate 40 gallons of domestic hot water assuming it’s raising the water 70 degrees. And that the EK2 provides 350 gallons per hour. Is my reading of this correct? Is this the same for the Resolute and Ascent Plus?

I watched a video on your website in which a man in Douglassville, Pennsylvania had a new Energy Kinetics installed. I saw that they snaked up the chimney a flexible polypropylene tube. Is that standard practice for all your systems that can use a polypropylene tube?

Current boiler

Roger

Excellent questions and review of topics and information, @SecondEmpireHouse , and very good replies from all as usual.

Some guidelines to help you on your way:

The easiest way to zero in on the right boiler for you is to use Energy Kinetics boiler selector. It will suggest other models based upon the selections you make.

Energy Kinetics recommends an EK1F Frontier for homes that use 2000 gallons of oil or less per year (and EK2F is recommended up to 3500 gallons per year). @Kaos estimated your fuel consumption per hour, which is greater than your actual heat loss as it accounts for boiler efficiency losses (and hot water if included). Here's a sizing chart and the reasoning on the 2000 gal/year: You can estimate the load on design day using heating degree days (Pittsfield MA has about 7500 HDD per year and a design day temperature of -3°F, or 65+3=68 HDD, so 68/7500 or 0.9% of fuel is burned in 24 hours on a design day; 2000 gal/year x 0.9% / 24 hours = 0.75 gal/hour or 103,000 BTU/hr so a EK1F Frontier which fires up to 1 GPH has extra capacity to provide the heat and hot water you need). Of interest, almost all homes use about 1% of annual fuel usage on design day in the US (it's just how heating degree days and design days work out). Because you have such a large house, some contractors may want to increase the boiler size, but your 2000 gallons per year (if accurate) calculates to an EK1 size.

If your boiler does not have enough capacity, on design day the burner (the part with the Beckett label) will never turn off. If your radiation is undersized, the burner will cycle on and off, but your rooms will not reach their desired temperature.

For hot water, we recommend sizing the storage tank to 2/3 of the largest use for plate heat exchanger applications. So a 120 gallon drain down tub would be a good application for an 80 gallon tub. The plate heat exchanger can direct the nearly the full capacity of the boiler into hot water; if you have an indirect tank with a coil, plan on sizing the tank equal to the tub size (120 gallon tank in the above example) - they are slower than the plate heat exchanger and substantially less efficient as they cannot effectively thermally purge. If you have high flow showers, you may want to take that into consideration (you can do a "bucket test" and see how fast a 5 gallon bucket fills). The EK1F can deliver up to 205 gallons per hour with a 40 gallon tank, which will increase with an increase with a larger the storage tank size. An EK2F can provide up to 375 gallons per hour with a 40 gallon tank. The EK1F Frontier can fill a 40 gallon tank in 12 to 14 minutes, so we only recommend sizing using hot water consumption in commercial and very large use residential applications - if you can't find 15 minutes to make hot water, the heating sizing was not done correctly. Per @hot_rod 's post, this is much more important on combi boilers that produce hot water as it is used vs a boiler with a storage tank.

The polypropylene flexible venting in your question relates to the Resolute RT and Ascent Plus Combi models; the Frontier boilers are typically chimney vented.

You may also want to reach out to Mark Santangelo, our Territory Manager in your area, at (413) 575-0210 - he can answer addition questions and help facilitate a solution with your heating professional.

Best,

Roger

SecondEmpireHouse

Thank you so much for this input Roger… I can' thank you enough! I will follow up with Mark Santangelo!

rick in Alaska

That boiler you have looks like a about a 368 or 468 size, but hard to tell by the picture. If you measure it front to back, and go on their website, you can tell its exact size as they just keep adding sections to increase the size, and the measurement will tell you that. ( actually I just went on their site and it says that both are the same depth, but I don't see how that is possible, so the measurement might not help.) it might also have specs on top of the burner tube, or on the face of the burner.
It is an older boiler, so not as efficient as a newer model.

Rick

Charlie from wmass

@Kaos when there is a week of -15⁰F my customers di not call me that they can't get past 60 in their house. But I also work in the hills of Massachusetts and Vermont in old houses. If I size for heat emitters high I can lower operating temperatures for shoulder seasons and still hit degree days without exceeding 180⁰F water. But you do you. :)

Charlie from wmass

@rick in Alaska O would say 468 as it looks square the 368 is rectangular. Shorter front to back than side to side.

SecondEmpireHouse

Thanks for this @rick in Alaska and @Kaos ! I will look at the boiler more closely. I just remember there is a plastic bag hanging from the ceiling which contains the notes of technicians who have serviced the boiler. There might be information about the size of the boiler there!

On another note, I had a nice chat with Mark Santangelo and am yet again even more impressed with how responsive the folks are at Energy Kinetics. I look forward to working with their certified installers.

Thanks again for everyone weighing in on my posting!

Steamhead

Well, it does look rough, but that's probably due to poor servicing that resulted in plugged flueways. I'll be real interested to see what the inside looks like- who wants to take a bet it looks something like this:

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/188633/soot-vac-was-heavy-when-i-finished-this-one

SecondEmpireHouse

Actually it's very clean in side. The last time it was serviced in October I looked when the top was off. I have never seen it with the door open so I don't know what that looks like. But from the top it's really clean.

I think the boiler has lasted as long as it has because the service technician who has been working on it all these years is a seasoned, experienced, old pro and really knows what he's doing.

Charlie from wmass

Qht does have a condensing oil boiler. A friend on the north shore has taken a liking to them.

SecondEmpireHouse

@Steamhead I was thinking about the pictures you posted… is the door of boiler supposed to be opened before each heating season begins and all the build up vacuumed out?

Steamhead

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1830927#Comment_1830927

Yes, and if they're not doing that, they're not doing their job.

Your boiler does not have that type of door, so they would have to unbolt and remove the front plate that the burner is mounted on.

SecondEmpireHouse

Well,…. thanks for this information. I've watched the tech remove the top and clear the boiler with a long wire brush. But never open the door and clean it out. If they are supposed to be doing that that is pretty bad. Is it possible there are good reasons why he didn't do that? Like if you remove the door it might fall apart, or be impossible to put back, or very hard to put back?

Charlie from wmass

They aren't paid enough to risk breaking the studs that hold the burner plate to the boiler. They also don't charge properly to take the time to remove the plate. Now had they done it since new it would not be an issue. Gid forbid the. Consumer find out the actual cost To properly maintain their oil equipment. Good enough is too much work so they just keep it running. Not running well.

SecondEmpireHouse

So it sounds like "breaking the studs that hold the burner plate to the boiler" is a real risk to avoid and could be one of the reasons why the tech who cleans the old boiler didn't do that…. Thanks for pointing that out.

Charlie from wmass

@SecondEmpireHouse it should still be done and a competent tech could do it without breaking the studs and if they did would be able to repair it readily. It is an excuse often used not a reason.

SecondEmpireHouse

Thanks for this Charlie… when my heating company comes to my house to draw up plans and an estimate for replacing the boiler, I'll talk to them about this issue of cleaning out the boiler as you're talking about…

LRCCBJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1831101#Comment_1831101

I'm absolutely sure they will be very receptive………………………😫

SuperTech

I have made the mistake of breaking the studs before. It's not fun and turns a routine boiler cleaning into a major disaster. Nowadays I am very careful when it comes to making the decision to mess with them or not.

If the boiler has been neglected and the chamber is collapsing and needs to be rebuilt or the boiler is full of soot then I will need to open the bottom of the boiler.

If the boiler is one I have been taking care of every year and has been tuned to a true zero smoke I probably won't even need to vacuum and brush out the top of the boiler, nevermind messing around with opening the combustion chamber up.

It only takes a few minutes to find out if the combustion chamber needs to be opened up. A quick visual inspection through the observation door and a measurement of draft through the boiler will establish wether it's necessary or not.

SecondEmpireHouse

thanks for this SuperTech… this is pretty interesting stuff… the last time the tech was at the house, when he opened the top and I looked inside it was very clean and didn't need much cleaning…

Steamhead

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1831153#Comment_1831153

Well, that's encouraging, but you don't know for sure until you can see into the firebox.