Help choosing a new boiler (part 2)
Original discussion here
I need some help choosing a new boiler system for my house. Options are combi or boiler with indirect tank. I've read that the combi boilers are less reliable (per other thread), and in fact they have lesser warranties. I've been quoted for 3 brands and multiple models (both combi and boiler): Navien, Lochinvar, and IBC.
Not sure about Navien, but my top contender is a Navien NHB-80H because it can modulate the lowest providing 8,000 to 80,000 BTU/h (these might be input numbers) and it has a 15-year heat exchanger warranty. The IBC SL10-85 has a limited lifetime warranty on the exchanger, but it can only modulate from 10,100 - 79,000 BTU/h output. So I'm having trouble deciding - longer warranty vs lower minimum output? The Lochinvar EPIC boiler and the Navien NCB combis all have only 10-year heat exchanger warranties.
I am waiting on a quote for a Weil-McLean GV90 cast-iron + stainless steel high-efficiency boiler, but from what the distributor told me, it will be out of my budget, especially if I want the indirect hot water tank which adds over 3K.
My questions: Combi or indirect? Brand recommendations? Anything else I haven't considered?
More info:
House is 1961 brick bungalow with full concrete block basement, 77' of copper-fin baseboard on main floor, basement unheated (but somewhat insulated). Home has upgraded insulation and windows.
So I've done the back-of-the-napkin heat loss calculation based on fuel use (other thread). To recap:
I used my actual fuel consumption from both January 2023 and January 2024 (this is my highest consumption month). Of course, it includes the water heater, so the space heating is an overestimate. I did for a 65F and 60F balance point, giving me four numbers (60 and 65F, for 2023 and 2024).
The low number is 16,736.4 BTU/h and the high is 35,349 BTU/h. This jives with @hot_rod estimate of 38,000 BTU max based on baseboard lengths.
The ASHRAE sizing guide says to take that number (I used the highest) and multiply by 1.4 to get the recommended size. So mine would be 49,488 BTU/h for space heating.
Note that during the time of this fuel use, i was keeping the thermostat uncomfortably low to keep the gas bills more affordable, so ideally, the temp in my home would be higher. Also, the basement is currently unheated, and I'd like the option to add radiators down there and possibly a second bath with shower, at some point during the lifetime of this new boiler.
Based on this, I'm guessing my boiler choice should be around 80,000 BTU with as low of modulation as possible for the shoulder seasons.
My shower uses 2.5 GPM for domestic hot water, so assuming I'd like to run the dishwasher or another faucet while also showering, this eliminates all but the Navien combi boilers I've been quoted as they are the only combis that can do well over that.
Comments
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I would recommend a small cast iron boiler with a non stainless indirect . Your flow rate , you mentioned 2.5. x how long of a shower = size of storage tank .. Simple machines , less problems ..
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Cast iron boilers (old-style, mid-efficiency) are not available in my jurisdiction (Ontario, Canada).
Except for the high-efficiency Weil-McLain GV90 I mentioned, which is cast-iron + stainless steel, and will probably be out of my price range. So cast iron is most likely not an option.
For DHW, my current tank is 40 gal, and I'm happy with it, so I'd probably just go with that for an indirect. (Unless I do end up getting a Navien combi, which can do like 4.1 GPM at 70 degree rise)
(Edited to add more info)
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I’d highly recommend that you stay away from combi’s and Navien.
The installer is 95% of the equation. Find a good HYDRONIC contractor.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
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Thanks. Can you please expand on why you don't recommend combis or Navien?
For all my quotes I've been using heating & cooling/HVAC companies. By Hydronic contractor, do you mean plumber?
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No, I mean a contractor that specializes in Hydronics. Most plumbers and HVAC contractors are clueless on hydronics.
You need to specifically look for and ask contractors if they’re trained and equipped to properly install and service mod/con boilers. Ask if they have a digital combustion analyzer and if they know how to use it.
There are only a small percentage of jobs where a combi is suitable and they require a lot more maintenance and repairs. Particularly where there’s poor water quality.
The fact that so many contractors push combi’s and Naviens only demonstrates their lack of hydronic expertise.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
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Hmm. Okay, thank you. I did ask if they are trained to install boilers, and why they install their particular brand, etc - all said their guys are trained, and they "don't have any problems" although one of the people that quoted Navien seemed to keep talking about tankless water heaters and not boilers. But they have all said they installed "many" boilers and are experienced. The guy I asked for the Weil-McLean quote, did tell me that he has no experience with that particular boiler model.
I also asked one of the salesmen if they will do a combustion analysis after the system is installed and he confirmed it's part of the installation.
But I'm quite out of my wheelhouse here. Grateful for any help.
I just tried to google "hydronics contractors [city]" and it shows a list of heating, HVAC and plumbers, and when I go to their sites (most of which I've already visited) it doesn't say the word Hydronics. Ugh.
Is there a certification I should ask about?
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Combi boilers are made for apartments , you would find them in the kitchens in Europe where they also use radiators for heat , low temperature heat .. You have a basement with baseboard which is high temperature heat . A condensing boilers efficiency is peak at low temperature . Running it for baseboard the smaller savings gets eating up by the service , besides the aggravation of getting it running again up there with the great moose of the North way :)…. Go low as they allow you to go, as far as tech would be my recommendation …
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(Edit) sorry I thought you meant something else.
So you are saying don't get a combi, just go with a regular mod/con and indirect?
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I know I will get disagreement, but you’re asking for opinions.
I would never do a combi, they are always a compromise IMHO.
I wouldn’t do an indirect either. Why run a boiler if you don’t need to? I’d do a heat pump water heater, in Canada, based on my limited knowledge, I would think this is the way to go. I fully appreciate the electric rates are regional. That is unless you need mountains of hot water for hours on end? The domestic hot water decision comes down to lifestyle, it’s not really a system decision. I’m betting none of the contractors have discussed lifestyle with you? They probably just want to provide you with something that no one, regardless of lifestyle, complains about. So, you will get recommendations based on people who take 45 minute showers at the hottest temp they can stand, for 3-4 people back to back.
For the heating side I’d get the smallest boiler available and have that put in. With your low load, I believe all of them will be oversized, so in my opinion it’s 100% about the lowest output, not the maximum, in your case. Considering you said no cast iron is allowed in your area.
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Yes, definitely looking for opinions, especially when they are explained (i like to know people's reasoning :) .
All the contractors started off basing their quotes on my current equipment. I asked many of them for 2-3 quotes, so they also did smaller systems based on my BTU/hr calculations, and some submitted quotes for different brands, or a combi and then a boiler + indirect. But pretty much yes, the quotes I got were for the smallest systems which are 80K BTU/hr mod/con boilers or the 100K BTU/hr combis.
But in my situation right now - my boiler is condemned, so I'm sitting here while it's snowing outside heating my house with a bunch of electric space heaters. I need a new boiler post-haste. My domestic water heater is working fine for now, but it's like 30 years old. The only reason I'm even considering replacing it now is because it will likely need to get replaced in the next few years anyway, and I'd rather do everything at once and not wait for it to leak or otherwise fail.
Do you happen to know off-hand if heat pump water heaters are more to install up-front than an indirect water heater? Budget and time are both concerns.
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Yes HPWH are more costly to purchase and more costly to install stay with an indirect. Stay away from Navien.
I would only use a HPWH if your electric rates are low. Failures with a hPWH are a problem. They have a refrigeration system that makes them a throw away appliance. They are expensive and if they fail they are probably not worth fixing. Unless you electric rate are really low they are not worth the problems
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Heat pump water heaters need a fair amount of space around them to pull heat from. They discharge around 43F air into the space you locate then. Read through an installation manual to be sure your home is a good candidate.
I have had great success with 6 different combis that I have owned, dating back to the MZ Monitor of the early 1990s Endless hot water at a 2 gpm flow rate with a 120k and the boiler can be derate to exactly match your heating load. Outdoor reset is standard. Lochinvar, IBC and NTI are well known brands in your area. Normally every 2 years is a good maintenance schedule. This would be true of any mod con boiler, combi or not.
There are good hydronic contractors in your area also.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I'm not a pro, just a homeowner, but since you're considering a Lochinvar, you might want to read the positive comments about the Lochinvar Noble in this earlier thread:
In fact, the heating pro @hot_rod who posted the comment above mine also mentioned in this earlier thread that he has (or had) a Noble 120 that he was happy with.
But if your DHW flow requirement is too high, I personally would rather go with a smaller boiler better suited to your small heating load, like a Lochinvar Knight 85 with an indirect tank. That would modulate down to about 8,000 BTU/hr in the shoulder seasons. My sister has a Lochinvar Knight with an indirect tank, and she has been very happy with it.
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Navien NHB-80H is not a combi
Navien NCB-80H is the combi. Both have heat exchangers designed for hot water and are the poorest heat exchangers I have ever dealt with.
lochinvar- I have done plenty of noble combi's and consider them one of the best. epic is a step down so a small increase in the price its worth it for the noble
IBC- No installs or service.
the reason the Navien sucks is because its mainly an on demand water heater that is reconfigured with a flat plate heat exchanger for heat. So the main heat exchanger which is really junk is not ASME rated or even in the ballpark as far as quality. its a kiturami piece of crap and because the domestic hot water runs thru it you will have to descale it quite often.
we deal with Naviens all the time because we service multiple chain restaurants and they are space savers. You don't pay rent for a mechanical room because you don't need one. They put these in the kitchen anywhere. above the walk-ins, on a common wall, above the rear entrance, etc.
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Ontario has high electricity prices. The average is 13 cents/kWh. Sounds like heat pump might be the same thing as Geothermal? So yeah, high installation and up-front costs plus more to run. Thanks for the info about it.
OK so I am hearing that Lochinvar and IBC are good brands. Navien isn't, but not sure why, as it seems like its specs meet my needs the best. It even has a longer warranty. Is it that they cause problems?
My only concern about the Lochinvar (had an EPIC EPB080N quoted) is that the warranty is only 10 years. It does seem that people like them.
IBC has the limited lifetime warranty, but only on the standalone boiler, not the combis. And it doesn't modulate down below 10,100 BTU/h. I haven't found too much about them.
The reason I keep going on about the warranties, is that I am really wanting something reliable, as I am spending a ton of money I don't have on this, and definitely don't want to do it all over again in 10 years :)
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As an aside, since my quote hasn't come in for Weil-McLean and the salesman who used to be a tech said he has no experience with them… does anyone know how a Weil-McLean GV90 compares price-wise to the mod/con standalone boilers? Are they about the same, less, a lot more?
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About warranties, don't be misled. A heat exchanger warranty means nothing when a control board fails. And a heat exchanger, while important, is easier to manufacture reliably than an electronic control board.
Buying a boiler based mainly on the warranty of the heat exchanger is something like buying a new car based mainly on who offers the longest warranty on the engine block. Yes, you want a long-lasting engine block, but you also want reliable electronics…and everything else.
But isn't the Lochinvar heat exchanger warranty 15 years?
https://www.lochinvar.com/lit/455183WAR7007_Rev%20H_100161787_2000019078_Residential%20Boiler%20(38872).pdf
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"There are good hydronic contractors in your area" - but like, I honestly thought that's the people I've been getting in and quoting. I feel like if I ask they'll say they are. How can I tell if a company/technician is a hydronic contractor? I haven't found that stated on any company sites, except one that states elsewhere they do furnaces and A/C… (no mention of boilers). How do I as a layperson know how to find one?
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Sorry to disagree but there is no way a HPWH is more money to install than an indirect with all its extra piping and circulator and heat exchanger.
I'll disagree again that a HPWH is only good if your electric rates are low. If your electric rates are low I would recommend a resistance electric water heater, but high electric rates are a perfect match for a heat pump water heater with its extremely high efficiency.
As for problems with their technology, it's the same technology as a dehumidifier or refrigerator, it should last as long as the tank. In fact, I wish they would make them with plastic tanks like they do some resistance water heaters so we wouldn't keep having to throw away appliances in 10 years due to rusted tanks.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Hmm.. okay. I've also been trying to read reviews, but I've read about the same bad and good things about the brands I've picked (except IBC.. haven't found too much on them). So is there a more solid way to tell if the brand/model has good reliability and good support? Not like I can test drive a boiler system .. I wish 😆
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Again, I'm not a pro, but I've been reading this forum long enough to know that the pros here who have already offered their advice are trustworthy. If experienced pros like @pedmec and @hot_rod are saying they would buy a Lochinvar instead of a Navien because they've had bad experiences with Navien, that would be enough for me.
I realize "trust some random experts on the Internet" isn't an entirely satisfactory answer, but if you search "lochinvar" on this forum, I think you'll find that most of the pros have had mostly positive things to say about Lochinvars over many years.
You will also find many troubleshooting questions, but that will be true for any modern condensing boiler, as these are all complex electro-mechanical devices that can easily be screwed up by poor installation, etc.
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this is the rep for Lochinvar across most of Canada. Contact them for a list of contractors that are factory trained. My experience is that this is a very good rep firm. They support the contractor with training and repair parts.
NTI is a Canadian brand out of Saint John, NB, another solid choice with a good team.IBC is also a Canadian company
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
Aha, excellent, I did contact those people, they did give me a local company, and that's who provided my Lochinvar quote. (Same company provided a quote for a Navien too lol)
So I guess it's between Lochinvar and IBC (and possibly Weil-McLean depending on the price).
Edit: should I be concerned that the IBC boiler only modulates down to 10,100 BTU/h while the Lochinvar goes down to 8,300 BTU/h or does that not matter?
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Sorry, I just saw your last line. No, the Lochinvar warranty is 10 years for the heat exchanger for the model I was quoted:
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Again speaking as a fellow homeowner, I think you're on the right track. You've gotten a quote from a contractor who is factory trained by Lochinvar, and you have a Lochinvar rep nearby. Many of the problems I've seen reported here come from homeowners who had systems installed by contractors who weren't factory trained and/or didn't bother to read the installation manuals for the systems they were installing. You shouldn't have that problem when you use a factory-trained contractor who was recommended by the Lochinvar rep. You can also read their Google reviews and get a good idea of their reputation.
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@hot_rod 's advice is sound. I would check out the Lochinvar Rep to find a contractor in your area.
There are three things I would consider when purchasing a heating system.
- How long do you expect to live in that home
- The return on investment on the product you choose (in energy savings)
- What the life expectancy is on the equipment you choose.
For example, you plan on living there for 3 to 5 years. Get the lowest cost equipment available because you won't be there long enough to realise the savings on the higher proceed higher efficiency equipment.
Another example, If you plan on living there for 10 to 15 years. Get a higher efficiency system. That is where the sweet spot is for most “return on investment” numbers that fall into the good investment time frame. Those higher efficient boilers also have shorter lifespans, like 15 to 20 years. So by the time you are ready to leave the home, you have recouped the savings and you will be bone before you need a replacement boiler.
If however you plan on finishing your life in that home, and you are in your mid 60s, then you want a boiler that has the longest lifespan. They seem to be the lower cost Cast Iron boilers that have the least amount of bells and whistles. They are not the most efficient systems, but you will not be purchasing a new boiler when you are in your late 80s when you are more susceptible to being taken advantage of.
So there you have it. The choice should be based on your lifestyle and your present and future plans with that home.
Lochinvar has a good product and they have good support for the contractors that install them. They don't make the Cast Iron boilers that Weil McLain, Peerless, Crown or Burnham make. Their lowest price point boiler is the Solution series that has a copper tube heat exchanger that operates at about 84% efficiency.
The Knight series is the higher efficiency condensing boiler and it also have good reviews. The efficiency is at about 95%
If you want the longest lasting boiler then you want to look at the other brands that sell the cast iron boilers. The lowest cost boilers have the least amount of parts to fail. And the cast iron sections can last over 40 years when well cared for. Weil McLain CG boilers are a real workhorse as is the Crown Aruba series 5 boiler that checks in at about 84% efficiency.
As far as indirect water heaters are concerned, I believe they are the best way to make Domestic Hot Water (DHW). Tankless do not last as long and you may need to sacrifice the way you use hot water. A 199,000 BTU tankless will cost less to operate in the long run but it will need to be replaced every 9 to 12 years in my experience. You may not be able to use the washing machine and the dish washer and take a shower at the same time. And if you have two showers going on at the same time, well that ain’t gonna happen with a tankless.
The indirect tank will last over 25 years in my experience. Some models have a lifetime warranty. Compare that to a tank type gas water heater that is connected to a vent to exhaust the fumes from burning gas. That vent does not go away when the gas is turned off when the tank reaches temperature. That vent is connected to the outside the entire time that the water heater is not burning fuel. It is like a vacuum cleaner sucking cooler boiler room air through the vent, picking up heat from the hot water tank and exhausting it outside. The vent type tank may need to recover every 4 to 5 hours even if no one is using any hot water. Your energy is literally going up the chimney. Finally the tank type water heater burner is about 40,000 BTUs and is about 78% efficient
An indirect uses the larger house heating burner so the recovery will be much faster, that means that you can take 2 showers at the same time without running out of hot water. Next is that the tank is not connected to a vent. So when the tank is satisfied and the burner turns off, the heat in the tank will stay in the tank up to 3 times longer before it calls for heat again. If no one uses hot water for 15 hours, then the burner will not need to turn on to recover that temperature drop the vented water heater experiences. The burner that runs your heater is at least 84% efficient or as much as 96% efficient. (more efficient than the tnk type 78% efficient burner.) the vent is connected to the home heater amd that can cool off without wasting the heat in the water tank. So you don't need to keep the house heating boiler hot all summer. You only run the more efficient boiler when you need DHW. You don't keep the boiler on all summer.
Those that don't recommend indirect water heaters have that misconception that your house boiler is at 180° all day long 24/7 all summer. That is simply not true.
I hope this finds you some additional information that you can use to make an informed decision on your new boiler and water heater
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Thank you, this was very informative. I really appreciate this.
One thing I noted above (sorry, I know the post is getting long) - mid-efficiency, cast iron boilers are not available in Ontario, due to current regulations. Only high-efficiency boilers are permitted. There is absolutely no chance of getting a mid-efficiency cast-iron boiler like my old one. I tried. The closest is the Weil-McLean GV90+ I do not have a quote on yet, that no one is experienced with, but it's a cast-iron/stainless steel hybrid.
My goal is to live in this home for the next 40 years, and to never replace my boiler ever again (I know, it's impossible with a high-efficiency boiler, but a girl can dream). I have a very limited income/resources and (as you can tell by my 1,027 questions) this is stressful for me :) If by chance I ever do have to sell my home, I want the great boiler system to be a selling feature. I am willing to spend a bit more up front (within reason, I'm poor) to ensure the longest possible amount of time passes before I have to get it fixed or replaced.
I have taken under consideration everyone's recommendations and I am definitely looking at the boiler + indirect tank instead of a combi boiler now. (Thank you for the great explanation about how the indirect tank works. It really helps).
So the Lochinvar is a good model. I was quoted for the EPIC. Am I correct that the Knight you're referring to is basically identical to EPIC except it's a floor-mount instead of a wall-mount? They both seem to be fire tube.
So yes, I think I have access to factory-trained Lochinvar installers. The IBC quotes also came from a company that deals exclusively with the IBC brand, so they only install IBC boilers. Both Lochinvar and IBC come with a branded, matching indirect tank.
And basically my main holdup question now: does the low end of the range matter a lot? Should I be concerned that the IBC boiler only modulates down to 10,100 BTU/h while the Lochinvar goes down to 8,300 BTU/h or does that not matter?
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I don't think that you should worry much about the modulation BTU output. its going to about 4' of baseboard difference. I think you should concern yourself with getting the best installer you can find. the installer is the most important part of the install. If you follow some of the threads on here you can read about all the improper installs. They are continuing headaches for the homeowners. And the contractors just turn around and blame the manufacturer. Its like a never ending story. I had one service call where the customer complained to me that she saw the contractor more than she saw her husband.
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Okay, thank you. I will try. Any tips for how to know if the installers will be any good? I won't get to meet or talk to them before they get to my house, so I'd have to ask questions to the "gatekeeper" when I call. What kinds of questions should I ask to find out if the installers are good?
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For your minimal Domestic Hot Water needs I recommend a 40 gallon electric resistance water heater.
Today my son is driving 700 miles back to his home on the east coast. He is making the trip in the last car my Dad ever bought. Mid size sedan. Now 20 years old. It currently has 65,000 miles on it.
My dad loved reading Consumer Reports. A couple years after he bought the car he told me he was thinking about buying a Prius because it was more efficient. He drove less than 2000 miles a year.
Had he bought the Prius, it would now be in a junkyard because the EV battery pack would be dead.
Overly complicated, highly efficient equipment makes sense if you are a heavy user. Hybrid cars are great for people that drive 50,000 miles a year.
Get a mod-con. No indirect. If you like the mod-con installer, he can replace your current working water heater at a later date. For that and for you, I recommend a 40 gallon electric resistance heater.
When the mod-con breaks, you will still be able to take a hot shower.
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@RandomLady , this is not Rocket Surgery. 40 years ago, I took a class from Dan Holohan (The guy who started this website) and from that day on, I would do a heat loss calculation. I measured the walls, windows, ceilings, floors, and doors. Put all those measurements on a form, used the appropriate multipliers and came up with a number. It was often 50% or more lower than the old heater that I was replacing. This was impressive to my customers because none of my competitors did that. I also guaranteed that the smaller heater would do the job or I would install the larger one at no additional charge. That is how I grew my business.
The heat load calculation was not the most accurate calculation by design, It was a short form sheet of paper and I used the next lower multiplier just to be sure it was a little oversized. But it was enough for me to know that the selected size was not too small. Granted I may have still been a little over sized but I would rather it be a little over sized than it be undersized. The smaller heater still was a better choice than using the same size as the old one, my competitors quoted. Once computers became popular, I got more accurate numbers.
With the new modulating boilers, you don't need to be as accurate. If your home needs 81,254 BTU per hour on the coldest day of the year and you select a 120,000 BTUh heater that modulates, then that oversized heater will only be an 81,254 BTUh heater on the coldest day of the year. That is the way they work. So the oversized heater is not really oversized at all. The fact that one model will go as low as 8,000 BTU and another will go as low as 10,000 BTU is nit picking in my opinion. All that means is that your boiler can’t modulate when the outside temperature is above 59°F or 57°F (15°C or 14°C) so it will just cycle on and off when it is 16° or warmer outside, if you even have the heater on when it’s that warm. You did pick Ontario Canada to live in…
For my retirement I choose to go south. I digress
I would not stress over the low end of the turndown ratio. If you happen to select the lower one because the contractor is the better choice in your opinion, then good for you. If you believe the other contractor is the better choice then go with the better contractor. Look at the reviews online to see if they offer better service after the sale. Get recommendations from friends. The contractor that stands behind the equipment they sell is always the better choice. The brand of equipment is secondary to your choice.
A final note: when I taught my one day seminar on Hydronic heating to professionals, I would often mention that selecting the proper size boiler based on the heat loss of the home may oftentimes render the boiler too small for the DHW demand of the homeowner. In this case you should select the size based on the DHW demand even though it may be oversized for the home’s heating requirements. With the modulating boilers that makes more sense now than before because the oversized boiler will adjust down to the correct size when not being used for DHW. Just don't go overboard with a 199,000 boiler when your load is only 50,000 BTUh. That is just wasteful ignorance on the part of the contractor.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Ha yes, I'm the only person I know who still has a copper landline. Guess whose phone still works during our (not uncommon) power outages? lol. Although I was surprised when I called 9-1-1 when my carbon monoxide alarm went off last week, and they asked my location. I thought copper landlines meant that 9-1-1 knew your address automatically. But yeah, simple technology does seem to be more reliable and less failure-prone.
I suppose you'd vote for the IBC boiler. They advertise "only 4 moving parts!" (5 for their combis), parts that are universal to all their models, and easy maintenance. They seem to want people to know their boilers are more simple. And that advertising is attractive to me, for all the reasons you mentioned. I definitely want reliability and longevity.
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Thanks for this! I will definitely check out online reviews. It's down to a choice between Lochinvar and IBC, so I was wondering if there was any metric that favoured one over the other. It seems like they are pretty evenly matched though.
I will try to call around tomorrow and see if I can find any hydronic heating professionals. Although I feel like most heating companies will just equate this to their "boiler guy".
I am glad I did a rough estimate heat loss calculation. Thank you so much for your input!
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I am unfamiliar with the IBC equipment. I worked mostly in Philadelphia PA and Southern NJ and never had a chance to see one in operation. I looked at the installation instructions for the SFB-99-1 and the SFB-120-1 and they appear to be a well built product. Their maintenance instructions take up 6 pages in their manual, This seems pretty comprehensive. If you have a reputable contractor that is familiar with the equipment, I see no reason to avoid this product. just make sure to have a professional maintenance completed every year.
Of course I can't indorse it without having looked at it up close or knowing about its longevity. I can say that this will not be your last boiler since none of the condensing boilers have a life expectancy of more than about 17 years, however with proper maintenance there is no reason that it can't have a useful life span of 20 years or more.
These new fangled things just don't last the way the old cast iron standing pilot boilers did. That is progress. Planned obsolescence in order to make you purchase something "Better" in the future.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I’m sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with this. An indirect water heater is an extremely simple device, as simple as an electric water heater, maybe more so.
An electric water heater has two thermostats, two heating elements, and a limit switch. An indirect simply has one hot water coil, which is heated by the boiler, submerged in the tank, plus an aquastat or sensor to control the temperature. Electric water heater elements and thermostats have to be replaced quite often, but an indirect usually lasts 20+ years with no repairs required.
The electric elements in an electric heater can only produce 15.3k btus to heat the water. An indirect will have the full 85k btus of your boiler to heat the tank. Hence, the indirect will recover more than five times faster.
An electric heater uses electric resistance heaters which cost about three times as much to operate as heat produced from natural gas.
Mod/con boilers come already setup for indirect water heaters, the only additional component which is sometimes required is an additional circulator, depending upon the model.
The only positive side to an electric is that it initially cost less, but if a new electric circuit is required, that may more than offset that.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.1 -
you said: "The guy I asked for the Weil-McLean quote, did tell me that he has no experience with that particular boiler model."
Then I would not buy the WM boiler from him. Doesn't mean he is a bad installer though. I would ask him to quote what he usually installs and consider that.
you said:"I suppose you'd vote for the IBC boiler. They advertise "only 4 moving parts!" (5 for their combis), parts that are universal to all their models, and easy maintenance. They seem to want people to know their boilers are more simple. And that advertising is attractive to me, for all the reasons you mentioned. I definitely want reliability and longevity."
That's just advertising and marketing fluff. Doesn't hold any weight with me. However @Ironman likes HTP
IBCand has installed many. He has pictures of his HTPIBCinstalls here. I've never met Ironman, but from his posts I'm pretty sure he knows his stuff, so if HTPIBCis good enough for him, then it's good enough for me.Viessmann has a good rep.
I would eliminate Navian not because I know anything about it, but because the of the consensus here
I'm a little off. I'm impulsive. I have no problem making decisions. I knew I was going to buy my house after looking at it for 10 minutes. No home inspection.
I make decisions based on what is known, and placing odds (bets, probabilities, whatever) on the unknowns. I go with my gut. It's not a perfect methodology, but nothing is. It seems to work better than obsessing on marketing fluff and meaningless numbers that marketing people put in their brochures to pander to people that think they are being analytical.
Use your Lady intuition. Women are better then men at judging character sometimes. You are buying labor as well as parts. Judge the labor.
I think most Mod-Cons (other than Navian) are about the same. Many have 10 year parts and labor warranties. The present value of a 15th year of service is pretty low. Meaning if one mod-con gives you 12 years and another gives you 18, that really doesn't mean much in terms of value today. Time value of money.
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If you are getting quotes on Combis, consider the Laars and Viessman brands. Mad Dog
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Don't get estimates on any combi boilers.
Just one old man's opinion
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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The current finalists are the IBC SL10-85 (with indirect water heater) or Lochinvar EPIC EPB080N (also with indirect water heater).
Also considering the Lochinvar Knight since I think that's the floor standing version of the EPIC, and I like the idea of it not being attached to the wall. I just have this idea that floor standing ones will cause less vibrations since the floor is concrete.
I will call both contractor places tomorrow to ask a few additional questions, but seriously guys, thanks for helping me to narrow it down. I hate making decisions about super-expensive, important things I know next to nothing about :)
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Can't disagree with anything you said about indirects.
However, a 40 gallon electric water heater is a commodity item. It's cheap. An indirect is not. Also, more labor and higher priced labor with the indirect.
There are historical reasons why indirects were beloved on the east coast:
No Natural Gas network
Oil WAS cheap
Labor WAS cheap
Labor WAS competent
Boilers WERE cheap
Boilers WERE reliable
Parts WERE available
That was then, this is now. Today, for LOW users of DHW I say a 40 gallon electric is the better financial decision. For higher volume users of DHW, I say you got to at least consider a HPWH.
I'm the guy that never showed my work on math problems in school. I love story problems. I could usually guess the right answer. Prove me wrong. Show me the numbers. Parts and labor. Total Cost of Ownership. Total Cost over the lifetime of the Mod-Con. I'll bet I'm right.
I don't like to put all my eggs in one basket. I have a boiler. I have a cheapo 40G electric water heater. My boiler could die in April and I wouldn't have to fix it until November. What's that worth?
Efficiency percentages are over used. I'm not going to spend thousands today to save hundreds tomorrow.
Time value of money.
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