My first boiler install, so far
I've been replacing my old boiler with an identical one and have asked so many questions on this forum that my thread count is higher than satin sheets and have received so much help that if you were my neighbors I'd be mowing your yards for life, but instead of constantly starting a new thread for each question I thought I'd just put them here in one place for what I hope is the home stretch. This is basic fundamental stuff for you guys but for me it's the biggest household project I've done short of raising kids, though they turned out alright except one might be oversized by a few thousand BTUs and the other one could use a new pressure reducing valve.
Obviously the install is not done. All comments such as "What were you thinking when you did X! are welcome. I can always change things. Callbacks are not a problem because I live here. Here are some comments on the photos:
I'm keeping my old burner. @SuperTech suggested a Carlin 70200 on it which I have but as you can tell it's not on there yet — I figured I have enough to do and that I'd leave the old one on for now since it was working fine and if somethings' weird if and when I fire this thing up I can immediately eliminate installation error regarding the 70200 … because I didn't install it yet. Then when all is well, whenever that is, I'll put it in.
My plan is to slap the burner on as is since it was working before the old boiler started leaking and this new unit is identical, then see that it runs, maybe test with a wet kit, maybe clean it and put in a new nozzle but in any case have a pro in to test and look it over.
Back to the photos, interestingly, the Hy Vent (not installed yet) on a 5" nipple is interfered with by the circulator. Rotating the circulator 90 degrees makes it worse, rotating it at some odd angle would provide clearance, but I like the way the Taco logo faces front squarely like that so in the end the Hy Vent will probably touch the ceiling on top of a pogo stick of 1/2 pipe, plus I decided the Hy Vent should have its very own ball valve, which I don't know if anybody does that or not.
There's a Tigerloop on the left if you can see it, it will have two fuel lines of course going to the pump, I just hooked up that one to see if it was long enough and had enough clearance over the floor at the pump (the old boiler was three rows of blocks higher). I plan to have the inlet line go into the side port of the pump, with an elbow coming out of that port down to a vertical Firomatic there, I don't think I'd have enough clearance for that coming out of the bottom port. I bought a pair of braided flex lines which I know people love but I decided I'd stick with the solid soft copper tubing. The tube in the photo looks all wavy and unprofessional, I do have some leftover tube, I know there is something called a tubing straightener but I don't have one, I do have a tubing bender, though that can get a little dicey with the coated tube in terms of it can slicing the coating, maybe I'll wrap it in something when bending.
I decided to put unions on either side of the expansion tank, even though I know that's adding more things that can leak, but I couldn't get the tank off due to it's nipple being too small to get a pipe wrench in there and the crescent just started rounding the nut, which I think might be a common problem. Added an isolation valve to the right of the tank, another one will go in upstream of the pressure reducing valve.
Speaking of which, in the third photo that unrelenting string of plumbing doodads is actually not hooked up yet, because I might try to squeeze yet another one in there. Somebody told me I needed to have a backflow preventer and that that little check valve down below is not enough (this is well water but a quick internet glance tells me maybe I should have a backflow preventer anyway?), so I ended up getting some kind of intelligent combi auto-fill thing with its own attached backflow preventer which is what you see in the picture. I was all ready to hook it up with a new ball valve when I decided maybe I should look at the instructions which told me the backflow preventer needs to have a wye strainer installed upstream of it. Okay, that might hold things up all because I didn't read the instructions and now I have to get ahold of one of those strainers. I think I will install the combi and ball valve anyway without the strainer for now. I figure when the water comes through the house it goes through a whole house filter which supposedly filters out everything including sediments and whatever else and the cold water feed to the boiler is like a couple of feet down from that.
And actually, that's a question: do I actually need a wye filter just before the backflow preventer when there's a whole house water filter right there that won't even let an amoeba through?
Now I understand that this auto-fill/ backflow preventer combo is very intelligent but I also gather that it is a sensitive thing since it requires this upstream strainer (even though it appears to have its own strainer) and also it has to be checked and monitored and have things replaced maybe. My old Watts pressure reducing valve looked dumb as a rock but it seemed to do the job just fine without needing the plumbing version of a psychiatric support team — and then I learn that the strainer I need to get also requires periodic cleaning and maintenance. I'm waiting to get the instructions for the strainer which probably say that the strainer needs another strainer upstream of it. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in with these devices that strung together look like a battleship or the skyline of Dubai, I'm sure it's an upgrade, and I'm all for upgrades.
Clearly the duct pipe is not installed, and here's another question: Surprisingly, in all this stuff with a boiler, the thing I hated the most was removing and putting back the vertical flue pipe and elbow that goes into the sloped chimney duct, which I had to do to clean the old boiler, another unpleasant job. That duct that comes out of the wall has no play, and obviously the top of the boiler has no play either and muscling the elbow and vertical duct was no fun, I have no idea how i did it. Any tips as to how to deal with a thick 24 gauge sheet metal elbow and straight duct between two fixed points would be welcome. I suspect it has something to do with intelligent manipulation of the elbow. If not, then voodoo.
One last note. @HVACNUT mentioned that obviously I would be getting a new burner flange gasket. I didn't reply because of course, it's obvious, anyone would have ordered one of those in advance, naturally. Meanwhile I said whoops glad he mentioned that and ordered one on Amazon because we are snowed in today and that's the quickest I could get it, might delay things more if it takes time getting here. Given it's from Amazon I hope it's not made of tissue paper. (Also ordered a nozzle from them, but I figured if you're going to counterfeit something, delicate burner nozzles would not be a first choice.)
Comments
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No offense, but don't quit your day job!
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I don’t have a day job, if I did I could never do this. But please elaborate, I’ll fix what needs fixing.
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I assume Robert was being clever; your work looks good! Glad you were able to get over the hurdle of splicing into the old supply and return lines. Your soldering looks much tidier than the work on the legacy zone valve tree. 🙂
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Whatever is right, it’s thanks to your help! I deliberately took photos showing the better side of those solder joints, just don’t zoom in too much. I’m sure I consistently commit a beginner’s mistake of oversoldering (“Just a little bit more…”). I’m sure it takes many repetitions to trust the process.
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Is the oil line kinked? I agree that the soldering job looks great. It's not exactly how I would have done things but I know you weren't trying to redo everything and it should work well as it is. I'm surprised you didn't have to replace the expansion tank
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@SuperTech yes the oil line is kinked, can’t hide anything from a pro’s eye. That line might reach even if I cut out the kink, but maybe I’ll try with fresh tubing hoping it doesn’t look so wobbly.
Please tell me what you might have done differently. The reason I’m doing this is mostly to learn, not really to save money. (I went quickly from : “Oh no, my boiler needs replacing” to “Yay, my boiler needs replacing.” Well, sort of.) And yes, I thought it would be best to redo as little as possible, but as I went on and got more answers to questions etc., I began to feel more confident about the pure plumbing/connecting part; the hardest part is the detailed know-how of what to use and where and what size and how to deal with different situations and all that general plumbing hvac knowledge. I now feel in terms of piping I could have shopped for another boiler and maybe installed it, in that I now realize the boiler part really just has one supply and one return; if they were in totally different places I now think I could have gotten to them. I would have had to ask more questions (plus instruction manual) regarding pipe size, like is that a thing, this 1-1/4 going up and becoming smaller at the manifold, would a different boiler need different diameters? (Just thinking out loud.)
I put a tire gauge on the expansion tank and it said 12 psi, so I figured it’s okay. I put a tire gauge on myself and it said time for more coffee.
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You can or should get flexible braided fuel lines for the tiger loop to burner connections. Not sure what lengths they come in. It's a few years but they will allow you to open the combustion chamber door with out disconnecting the fuel lines. If they don't come long enough you can move the TL closer to the front of the boiler. Also lower it so you can put a pan on the floor under it so oil doesn't spill all over when you change the filter. So lower and closer to the front.
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver
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@seized123 said: I put a tire gauge on the expansion tank and it said 12 psi, so I figured it’s okay. I put a tire gauge on myself 🤣😃 and it said time for more coffee. 🤣😃
As long as you keep your sense of humor, you will do just fine.
I see the air vent is not installed yet. So you didn't pressure test anything yet?
if it is not too late to add these few fittings, this will make purging air from the system go a little easier. A full port ball valve just above the water feed inlet to the boiler and a purge valve just above that can bee added to a tee fitting on the iron pipe or on the copper side. What ever is easier for you.
This way you don't need to move the garden hose from one zone purge to the next purge. The garden hose stays at the same purge the entire time, then you just open and close valves as needed.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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ps: it’s nice to keep your posted in one thread. Makes it easier for the future @seized123 to track entire project. 😅
Maybe @Erin Holohan Haskell or one of the moderators can merge the threads?
Thanks!
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@EdTheHeaterMan that’s a great idea. If I’m too worn out to do it this time I could close the system and drain enough to do it some other time. Seems to me putting both on the black pipe if there’s room would do away with any soldering worries re dripping water.
The air vent’s not on because I’m waiting on a nipple and ball valve to extend it to where the Taco doesn’t interfere with it. But I did do a pressure test while it was still on the pallet so they couldn’t say I dropped it or something (Drop it?! I could barely lift it.) Ran a garden hose from outside hose bibb with everything plugged and the air vent on till it hit 1-1/2 normal pressure and let it sit awhile while I went and discovered there’s no more bologna in the fridge.
@Grallert good idea, I actually bought a pair of braided lines but decided not to use them. This is opening up a little can of worms here that has been discussed elsewhere, but I don’t trust the undersink braided lines that are everywhere and actually changed them all in my house to copper — paranoid maybe, but the latest horror story about those I just heard a couple days ago at the supply house. I’m sure the oil ones are better made, but I know that copper tube won’t burst and flares are generally solid, might leak and can be tightened or changed but won’t burst. Just my view for myself.
I’ll look at lower for the TL, but I think any lower and I wouldn’t be able to access the General filter behind the TL due to the expansion tank. It’s also as high as it is to give enough clearance to turn the filter wrench a few inches at a time before the tank interferes.
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I got a counterfeit piercing refrigeration valve once. Had a spiral machined in to the needle, leaked all the charge out, had to cut it out and braze on a new access valve.
Can probably rotate the sections of the adjustable ell in the vent and slide it in and out as you rotate.
The check included with that prv assembly i believe meets the US model code. I wouldn't worry about a strainer.
A valve to replace the auto air vent when it inevitably leaks is a great idea and some do put it there. Think about 2 45s and an offset to get it out of the way of the circulator.
You can more or less size the pipe to the boiler by using the output of the boiler and the delta t of the system, (usually just use 20 Fahrenheit degrees to avoid actual calculations) and looking on a table of the flow capacity of various pipe sizes. You could likely have used 1" or at most 1.25" but bigger pipe won't hurt anything but your budget.
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Let's keep this discussion going as-is because I think it would cause more confusion if I merge them now. I've closed the other discussion. Thanks!
Forum Moderator
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Be careful, this stuff is addicting. In 2013 I tore out my decrepit burnt air system and put in a hydronic system with a lot of help form The Wall. Now at 62 I might be the oldest apprentice HVAC tech in the country. I love it, I mean yeah, its a pain sometimes but I get to fix things (usually) and tuning oil burners is fascinating, there is so much to learn.
Good work man! There are few things that could be different but those things have been pointed out already by the experienced guys.
Robert
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Thats how you stay young.
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Everything I would have done would have involved a lot more work and a lot more money being spent and in the end it probably wouldn't function too much different. I would have cut all the piping at the ceiling and mounted the supply and return headers on the wall between the boiler and indirect tank with split ring hangers, unistrut and threaded rod. Then the boiler is easy to work on from every side. I like microbubble air and magnetic dirt separator on the supply piping with the expansion tank and pressure reducing fill valve connected to it. A like to use a variable speed delta P circulator with zone valves. I would have installed all new Caleffi zone valves. The copper tubing on the tiger loop and oil pump doesn't bother me. It's just two 3/8" bolts to remove the oil pump from the burner if you need to open the chamber. The flex lines don't last forever.
But I get a little crazy and carried away with this stuff, trying endlessly to achieve perfection whenever possible. I probably care too much about minor details. Your boiler will work just fine.
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I would bring the oil line around the right side for ease of service. Then braided oil lines from the TL to the fuel pump. The door opens to the right, anyway. You're asking for spills where those filters are. And spills are not acceptable.
Did you check the specs that the OEM burner air tube from the old GO has the same insertion depth as the new GO?
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Had to take a day off to reconnect with society. These are lots of great suggestions, I'd like to get back to them, but first ask about @HVACNUT 's comments about insertion depth.
Is insertion depth the distance from the inner face of the burner flange to the edge of the tube where the head is?
On Beckett's current Residential Oil Burner Spec Guide they say for the WM "GO-3" with the F3 head and AF44YH air tube combination (mine says "AF44YHPW" ATC which I hope has the same specs), an insertion depth of 3". In the old and yellowed manual for my burner, it says "usable air tube length", which they show to be the distance between the inner face of the burner flange and the end of the tube (is that "insertion depth"?) should be either 2-5/8- to 3", or 3-5/8 to 4-1/2, or over 4-7/8 depending on whether something they call the "S" dimension on the electrode assembly (for a headache see photo of burner diagram, dimension "A" is the "usable air tube length" which I'm taking to be insertion depth) is one of three lengths.
Oh, maybe what they call the S dimension is adjustable on the electrode assembly, and what they're telling you is that with a given air tube length you need to make sure that the S dimension is withing those specs. Anyway, if insertion depth is indeed the distance from flange to end of tube, mine measures 3" now and the current spec guide says 3" so I figure I'm okay?
Beckett also says that "the combustion head must be 1/4″ back from flush with the inside chamber wall." I measured (see photo) that the head is about 1/4" back from the chamber liner (which is technically not the "inside chamber wall" right, taking into account liner thickness?) on the bottom of the hole, and about 1/8" back on the top (hey, might that indicate that the air tube is sloped downwards like you mentioned it should be, @EdTheHeaterMan?), although that photo was taken without the burner flange gasket on, which should retract the air tube out of the boiler another fraction of an inch. Since I don't think I can adjust the air tube length and I can't adjust where the door is I'd be stuck with what's there anyway, seems to me (the insertion depth's not adjustable on the Beckett AFG, right?).
I noticed online that maybe many years ago, on the WGO's, Beckett or WM or whoever "switched" from the F3 head to the L1 head with a different ATC, (requiring a different nozzle of, like 45 degrees rather than 70), but to me the current online specs indicate that the old way is okay too. (But apparently if I wanted to convert my WGO-3 to a WGO-3R I'd have to switch air tubes to get the reduced rate nozzle.)
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The insertion depth that @HVACNUT is talking about is the face of the flange to the end of the end cone. That appears to be ~ 3-1/16" in your photograph above. On your burner that is a welded flange, it is not adjustable. If for some reason your air tube was burnt away or otherwise damaged and you could not get a AF44YH air tube assembly, you could get a 6-5/8" tube (AF65XN very common) and the adjustable flange to get your burner operational in a pinch.
Then you would need to mount the adjustable flange so there was a 3-1/16" insertion depth. You may also need about 6 gaskets to gill the void in the mounting area because the adjustable flange is round and it wont fit in the square opening. The void between the flange and the door would need more than one gasket to make a good seal.
But that is not important now. you have a good AF44YH with a good F3 head. Just clean that head up with a wire brush.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@EdTheHeaterMan will do!
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(Note: I just edited this to change “disconnect FF” to “jumper FF.”)
So I want to start this thing up and I looked at the Tigerloop instructions (I have the Ultra-B with integral filter and a General filter before that) and it said upon startup use the bleed screw and bleed it for a minute and then shut off ball valve then open it to bleed again another minute. To do that would I just jumper FF on the old Carlin 60200 so it keeps running?But then I saw a post saying don’t bleed Tigerloops, they’ll just fill themselves. What should I do here?
Below is a photo from the TL instructions and a screenshot of that post.
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Got her up and running, and combustion tested by a pro. Heat. Hot showers. Wow. I don't know how I can thank everybody adequately, this has been a huge learning experience, and fun. I'll post an update and more thanks but now I have to go collapse.
But while I think of it, are any of Dan's books better than the others for basic stuff that's not specifically for steam? And Siegenthaler's book? Expensive, but worth it? Any others?
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Hi @seized123 , Dan excels at clarity. He writes sorta like Mr. Rogers speaks. Dan paints great pictures, and tells stories like only Dan and Homer can and could do. If at all relevant to what you're looking to learn, get Dan's books. What "basic stuff that's not specifically for steam" are you looking to learn? There's much knowledge of books on The Wall.
Yours, Larry
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@Larry Weingarten I guess hydronics in general. But either way, are any one or two of his books the best ones to start with?
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I bought a used older edition of Modern Hydronic Heating. The idronics articles are also great and free. the thing you'll learn here that the texts don't talk about is that nothing actually runs at a 20 degree delta t or the designed gpm, it is just used as rough math to select the right parts.
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Mine runs about a 10f delta, as an example.
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Hi @seized123 , Maybe start with three books… Classic Hydronics, What Hydronics Taught Holohan, and The Golden Rules. Then save up and get the rest! 🤩
Yours, Larry
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agree, my well insulated home with 19 radiators routinely has 7F delta when running extended periods (1+ hours)
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you could call it that :) but yes I do cleanings and service calls part time. Its not an ideal setup, my boss is a speed cleaner in my opinion and I come from a different background. At least he lets me take the time I want on jobs.
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