Weil-McLain WGO with RIELLO burner?
If this forum frowns on having a few threads open at once I’m sunk, but I figure this is a different subject.
There’s a very good chance I will be replacing a leaking boiler with another of the same make and model, Weil-McLain 3-section WGO. (Oil, hydronic, indirect water heater.) I had a tech out to confirm the leak, even though others on this website (and so therefore me also, trusting you guys as I do) knew it was done for. The tech is someone whose opinion I tend to trust also, and he was adamant that I’d be very well served putting a RIELLO burner on the new WGO, and that it can be done. (Current one has the usual Beckett, I had been figuring on just getting a whole new Beckett new burner assembly.) He says when well set up they run very clean, he firmly recommended them over the B’s. (FWIW he knew I wasn’t buying anything from him.) He likes them so much I have to consider it. Obviously he’s very familiar with both.
Opinions? Especially from those with Riello experience? Is it even “allowed” on a WGO?
My plan is to try (emphasis on try) to do the physical install myself, then have my oil company set her up, start and test.
Comments
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Riello makes an OEM F5 for the WGO-3 with a welded air tube/Flange.
FWIW, I mentioned I also have a WGO-3. The boiler is from '96. I moved in in December of '02, and the first thing I did was replace the Beckett AFG with a Riello F5. Nothing wrong with Beckett, but the one I removed didn't have an oil delay valve. And It had a 45 second safety. My preference for that boiler. For an EK, I'd go with the Beckett or Carlin EZ1 before the Riello.
Keep in mind also that if the boiler is over living space, you will hear the Riello more than you'd hear the Beckett. It's not exactly quiet.
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For the Riello noise issue , Down size the model if its in the range . Setting the air shutter more open settles the turbulence noise …
There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Thanks @Big Ed_4 , I’ll ask about downsizing the Riello model. The boiler’s in the basement below the living room and we definitely hear it, but I don’t find it an unpleasant sound, sort of that rumbly whoosh. and I kind of like knowing when it’s running. But that’s probably just what I tell myself, and quieter would be better.
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All three of them are good burners. I am not fond of Riellos myself but they are good burners. It's the parts they use I don't care for but that is just me. Most people love them.
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BTW, I’m changing my name to Ed. Not enough Eds on this forum.
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If that were mine, I'd install one of these:
and one of these, or a similar unit:
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Resideo-R7284U1004-Universal-Digital-Electronic-Oil-Primary
for a similar effect.
BTW, when you installed the Riello, did you use one of these, to keep the air tube from burning off?
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
I was on a Riello kick for some time in Cape May County. I installed one any time I could. No other oil company was familiar with them at the time. Kind of a job security thing. The customers would come back to me after someone else bad mouthed their new burner, that just saved them $200 to $500 per year. Cant be that bas of a piece of junk if it saves them that much money (of course a Beckett would also have saved them that much too)
The thing that impressed me was the sales rep that showed up at the family oil business in the 1990's to offer a class on how the Riello worked. He was near 300 pounds (kinda' big) and he took the cover off the burner and placed it on the floor next to the burner and told all of us technicians that ALL RIELLO BURNERS came with this nifty seat to use when working on the burner. Then proceeded to sit all 300# on that poor little red box. After going over every part on the burner, how to change the motor, pump, ignitor/relay, normal maintenance items like setting electrodes, cleaning the pump strainer, and how easy it was to replace the nozzle He got on his knees and places that red cover on the burner and it was a perfect fit. (well that was only half the reason. When asked about what parts are the most common to fail, He said they don't fail. Normal maintenance is all you need to keep that burner operating trouble free for years.
I put one in my home thet weekend, left if un maintained for 4 years and never had a problem. After 4 years I thought that i might be a good ides to do the maintenance. not a speck of soot on the boiler surfaces, the electrode setting were like the day it was new. Carbon buildup on the retention ring (air spinner) was as expected for a burner after operating for only one season. The nozzle was coaked over slightly. and since my fuel taknk was only a few years old and i delivered clean fresh oil to my home, tho iol filter was just fine.
That is when I started selling the 💩 out of them to every customer I could. And that guy was right, those burners don't break down. I had the parts kit in my service truck and I think it was about 8 years before i needed to use a cad cell eye from it. That was the least used tool box on my truck.
Anyway Since you are not going to be there after 4 years, what do you care about how long the thing works? Get what ever burner the supply house has in stock on your WM package boiler.
or buy the boiler less burner and use the burner you already have. Nothing wrong with that! Another $$$ savings.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@EdTheHeaterMan that sounds a lot like what the tech was saying about Riellos (not the part about the 300 lb man, but the other stuff).
The SupplyHouse WGO comes without the burner, so what I thought I might do is put my old Beckett on it, like you say. This would do at least two things. First, I wouldn’t be adding to the stress of my first boiler installation that of understanding a new burner too (even though I’d probably have a pro set it up and test it). As a fringe benefit, I could also then swap in the Carlin 70200 primary control I bought a year ago (I think on your recommendation?) and which has been gathering dust because I never installed it. Ironically, I was just sitting down to finally put it in when I noticed water leaking from the boiler.
But once everything’s running, I could then investigate the ins and outs of the Riello at my leisure, and swap one in if and when I decided it was worth it.
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No head protection. My turbulator doesn't have CTE because it's -.01 over fire.
If and when I upgrade, I'll post before and after pics. You'll all get some good yuks from my lamen brain piping.
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@HVACNUT and @Steamhead what was that all about? Please translate for us amateurs.
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Don't do the Riello. I would not recommend it in your situation. Use the Beckett you already have. It will need a different nozzle when placed on the WGO-2 and different air settings that your oil company's professional can do for you.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I was describing how I'd update the older Beckett burner to bring it into the 21st Century. Also, since the Riello air tube is smaller than the Beckett, I'd use a head protector (also known as a "cuff") to fill the space between the smaller air tube and the larger opening on the boiler, to protect it from excessive heat. I've pulled a couple Riellos that were damaged this way.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Amulet.
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What, now I have to install an amulet?
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Just upgrade your Beckett burner. It's easier than you might think.
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Not if you use the Beckett burner. When you remove it from your old boiler, inspect it for damage or deformation from excess heat. You may find that it is just fine, and a little steel wool or a wire brush will make it look like new.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Whoops, I was just joking, but now I google “amulet, boiler” and see it’s a real thing.
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Another name for the same item.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
@EdTheHeaterMan I’ll do that. It looks like I’m going to order the Weil-McLain WGO-3R from supplyhouse, (they don’t sell a ‘WGO-3’). What’s odd is that on the Beckett website, on their spreadsheet, they say for the WM WGO-3R use an AFG with L1 head and .65 x 60B nozzle (smaller nozzle than the 3, which makes sense since the ‘R’ stands for reduced input). But I think that means heck, I can’t use my Beckett AFG as is, it has an F3 head (and currently has a .85 x 70B nozzle). But the guy at Beckett says it’s okay, the 3 and 3R are basically the same thing, I can use that head and nozzle. Which made me think maybe the only thing making a 3R a 3R and not a 3 is the burner, nozzle, and head you put on it. (So if I put my old AFG on the 3R I really just have a 3?)
BUT supplyhouse’s 3R doesn’t come with a burner; they provide a link to their page for the Beckett AFG burner for the WGO-3, no mention of the 3R, implying that that burner is good for both.
What’s confusing me is this: I assume that burner comes with a head, whether F3 or L1 or whatever (Supplyhouse doesn’t say). Now It’s compatible with the WGO-3, that’s what it says on the SH burner page, but also with the 3R, as SH confirmed via chat and as is implied by them telling you this GO-3 burner is what you buy to go with the 3R. But as per Beckett’s spreadsheet you use a totally different head for the 3 and 3R. That burner that’s supposedly good for both doesn’t come with two heads, right? And I don’t think they ask you what head you want when you order the burner. What am I missing? So much for the theory that it’s the burner/head/nozzle combo that makes it a 3R. Can you see why I’m so confused? Anybody with experience with this 3R know what’s going on?
I guess the bottom line is, if Beckett says it’s okay to use my AFG, head and nozzle with the 3R, what should I care. But I still emailed Weil-McLain to ask: what exactly, then, makes a 3R and a 3?
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Stop overthinking this - you use your AFG with an F0 head and a Delavan .65 x 60B nozzle. F0 is the head to use on an AFG burner with a firing rate from .40 - .75 gph. F0 - R.W. Beckett F0 - F0 Replacement Burner Head for AF, AFG, SR Series
You are changing 2 parts as long as your air tube is the correct length. Then add your Carlin 70200 primary. If you want to upgrade everything, you can add the fuel cutoff solenoid and a new bio-compatible oil pump. DONE.
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@seized123 is over thinking again?
BUT supplyhouse’s 3R doesn’t come with a burner; they provide a link to their page for the Beckett AFG burner for the WGO-3, no mention of the 3R, implying that that burner is good for both.
No implication here. the WGO-3 and the WGO-3R is the same boiler with a different sticker. There are no internal measurement changes that prevent you from increasing or reducing the firing rate GPH. And you can use an amulet or you don't need to. And you can connect it to all five of your zones or you can connect it to only one zone and get a different boiler for the rest of the zones.
What’s confusing me is this: I assume that burner comes with a head, whether F3 or L1 or whatever (Supplyhouse doesn’t say). Now It’s compatible with the WGO-3, that’s what it says on the SH burner page, but also with the 3R, as SH confirmed via chat and as is implied by them telling you this GO-3 burner is what you buy to go with the 3R. But as per Beckett’s spreadsheet you use a totally different head for the 3 and 3R. That burner that’s supposedly good for both doesn’t come with two heads, right? And I don’t think they ask you what head you want when you order the burner. What am I missing? So much for the theory that it’s the burner/head/nozzle combo that makes it a 3R. Can you see why I’m so confused? Anybody with experience with this 3R know what’s going on?
You already have the burner you are going to use with the new boiler. Why are you stressing over a burner you are not going to purchase?
I guess the bottom line is, if Beckett says it’s okay to use my AFG, head and nozzle with the 3R, what should I care. But I still emailed Weil-McLain to ask: what exactly, then, makes a 3R and a 3?
I bet they tell you that the difference is the nozzle size. There may be a 1/4 of 1% efficiency difference in one air tube combination when compaired to another air tube combination. All of these tests are done by the manufacturer so they can have brabging rights about who has the most efficient boiler this year. I remember when I was installing Columbia Boilers. They had a boiler that replaced the FT model with the new Emerald model. The same boiler basically, but the fire tubes went from 1-1/2" to 1-1/4", the slide out baffles had one extra hole in them and there were twice as many tubes. It was the most efficient boiler with a Made In America sticker and they advertised the hell out of that fact. the following year there was a more efficient boiler by .06, so it only lasted for one year, but the literature they printed that year, lasted for 10 years.
Not that I am really suggesting this, but, If you remove the sticker on the side of the boiler with all those numbers on it, you will not be able to tell that you have the wrong burner (the burner from your old boiler) installed on it. Just do not remove the sticker with the CP number. That you need for warranty reasons.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@MikeAmann this morning I noticed that little circle icon with a frown on it. I didn't put that there, at least not intentionally. Anyway I changed it to a smile.
How do I select parts of a post, not the whole thing, to quote, like @EdTheHeaterMan just did? I click on "Quote" at the bottom of the post I want to quote, but the whole post appears and I can't manage to remove the parts I don't want to use. Couldn't find any housekeeping tips on that on the site.
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- I select the words I want to post and copy them to the computer clip board.
- I then pate them into the new post where i need them
- I then select the backwards IP looking thing at the left of the paragraph and select the " quote function.
- Just below that I select the Quote function again to get the grey line to the left to show what I am quoting.
- when I am finished the partial quote i hit return 2 times to stop the grey line to the left and return to normal paragraph mode.
Normal Paragraph mode
select the paragraph mode here
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I select the words I want to post and copy them to the computer clip board.
I then pate them into the new post where i need them
I then select the backwards
IPlooking thing at the left of the paragraph and select the"quote function.Just below that I select the Quote function again to get the grey line to the left to show what I am quoting.
when I am finished the partial quote i hit return 2 times to stop the grey line to the left and return to normal paragraph mode
@EdTheHeaterMan thanks. Easy as flying a fighter jet or something, but it works. Oh, have to work on getting one solid gray line.
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To get one grey line in stead of several lines, Select all the paragraphs. Once they are all highlighted (selected) then do the
"thingI select the words I want to post and copy them to the computer clip board.I then pate them into the new post where i need themI then select the backwardsIPlooking thing at the left of the paragraph and select the"quote function.Just below that I select the Quote function again to get the grey line to the left to show what I am quoting.when I am finished the partial quote i hit return 2 times to stop the grey line to the left and return to normal paragraph mode@EdTheHeaterMan thanks. Easy as flying a fighter jet or something, but it works. Oh, have to work on getting one solid gray line.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@seized123 is over thinking again?
Yes, I believe I might be overthinking. Maybe. So I found an app and I provided the info and it calculated that I am overthinking by 37%. But then I thought, can I trust that app? And I found another, and also a website with a calculator, and if I average all the results I am 28.7% overthinking. But how do I know any of them are trustworthy? What methods do they use? Hmm ….🙃
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@seized123 , if your going to use the existing burner, make sure it can be set up for the 2 section. Beckett OEM specs call for an L1 head on the 2 section. The 3 section was offered with either the L1 or F3 head. Same static plate. Different air tube. Different pump pressures. You're already upgrading the burner with a new primary, and maybe an oil delay valve for pre purge, right? It might be best to just get an OEM Beckett AGF for the 2 section. It still needs to be commissioned and tested by a pro, but at least you know for sure the burner matches the boiler.
IOW, if your existing burner has an F3 or F6 head, it might need the low fire baffle with the 2 section firing at .75 GPH. It will be trial and error retrofitting a burner from different sized boilers. It can be done. It's the only way it WAS done back in the day. But the tech better know what they're doing. With OEM, it should be just some minor adjustments.
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@HVACNUT thanks, @EdTheHeaterMan convinced me that I'd be better off going with the 3-section, because of the DHW, so I'll get that. Might still be oversized?…. Dunno. But I now know I have the option of going to a smaller nozzle (with the correct head) which will bring the BTUs down - although still to 85K, which might still be too much, but I am supposedly running 100k now….
There's already a solenoid on the burner, plus a new bio fuel pump, plus the motor is fairly new, there's even a new coupler, and it'll get the Carlin primary.
Had I gotten a 3-section, your advice would have been very valuable. I'm starting to learn how to look things up on Becket's spec guidelines, etc.
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I am going to start a new discussion with a Poll.
Who is overthinking their heating system more @CoachBoilermaker or @seized123 Vote here>
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@EdTheHeaterMan I will vote in that. At least I think I might, I'll think about it. I will have to check out @CoachBoilermaker's threads.
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We have lots of WM Golds here on the outer Cape; I much prefer the setup with a Carlin EZ-1 and the Carlin ProMax primary, set up with a 10 sec. pre-purge and 15 sec. post-purge; I find them the easiest to dial in and the cleanest firing burners. I have yet to run into one with a Riello. I know they have a reputation for clean and very quiet operation once one masters dialing them in. However, parts are proprietary to those burners, and are very expensive. You can pick up a motor for a Becket or Carlin for $75-80 (last time I checked, which was quite a while back); for the Riello, they can be three times that much. The ignitor is incorporated into the primary control, which is also very pricey. I recommend the previously described Carlin setup.
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@OuterCapeOilguy I noticed Riellos looked expensive. I’m going to keep it simple for now, since I’ve never done this before, and keep the old Beckett.
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