Disintegrated Taco IFC
I pulled this out of a stainless pump on city water, maybe 5 years old. The rubber is turned to mush and the plastic is flaking apart. Are these not meant for city water?
Comments
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There is a chemical that is in your water that is breaking down those parts faster than the chemicals in my water. What is the pump used for? Domestic Hot water recirculation? Closed system circulator?
I live in a different city than you do. What is in your city's water? You can have your water tested by an independent laboratory that your water supplier does not have any say over. (Not implying that there is a political agenda that may skew the actual reports from your cities water company)
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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The pump is for an open heat system so it is always circulating fresh city water.
Here is the report from the local utlity, chlorine and pH seem to be in the range. We don't have hard water here so no treatment needed.
https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/95c8-CS-24-0074DrinkingWaterAnalysisSummaryAODA.pdf
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I would talk with Taco any open system can have issues.
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Why an open system? I'm not saying that it's the cause of the problem but a closed system is always a better option.
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Maybe you could find an external check valve more suited to the task? The internal checks are usually included to avoid issues but their placement is less than ideal being inside the volute
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those checks are available with a few different “rubbers” buna , EPDM, viton, all have different tolerances to chlorine or chloramines
Or other chemicals the water provider may be using. Something in the water is breaking down those seals
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I understand that a closed system is always a better option for a pump, I'm just not comfortable with drinking any water from a closed system that might pass thru several radiators, a couple cast iron boiler sections and perhaps some steel/iron piping. Just sayin'
Interesting closed system story happened to me:
I did happen to find a customer in Villas, NJ that decided that connecting a laundry washing machine Hot hose to a purge valve from the heating zone for the second floor. It turns out that there was also a cold water hose bib within 12" of that particular purge valve on the boiler closed system. So it seems logical to a consumer that it must have been put there for the washing machine. After removing that hose, I wrote a note and told the customer that this particular connection was not for the washing machine, and to call a plumber to install a hot water hose bib for their washing machine. I attached it to the hose that was disconnected from the washing machine. (customer was not home when the maintenance was completed and the check for the "Tune Up" was already taped to the boiler)
The next heating season, I returned to do annual maintenance on that same boiler. Guess what was connected to the purge hose again…. You guessed it! The washing machine! I actually asked the customer's teenaged daughter to come and look at the incorrect use and connection point. I disconnected the hose again and made it clear that doing this would make their heating boiler go bad much sooner than normal by doing this. (I also wrote it on the invoice that left with the customer.) I also turned off the manual valve to the boiler feed and removed the handle. This way if the hose was connected to the boiler again, they would end up with not hot water for the washing machine after the boiler pressure dropped. They may even end up with no heat in that particular zone.
In December I got a call from that customer about a problem with the heat on one of the zones…. Guess what was connected again? Since this was a service call and not a maintenance only call (at a special low price) the customer was ready to listen and I was able to install a hot hose bib for the washing machine. "I told you that connecting the washing machine to that purge valve could cause problems". They agreed to pay for the necessary repair. I installed a hot water hose bib and connected the washing machine properly. I also purged the failed zone and put the handle back on the manual boiler feed valve. I was not a licensed plumber and was not supposed to work on the DHW. I was a licensed HVAC and was only supposed to work on the boiler piping. (That's why I told them to get a plumber to do it the first time.)
But I still won't drink Closed system water. it's not healthy!
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Using a tankless as the heat source. Those are rated for combi heat only. Technically it can work in a closed system but not rated as such.
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A very helpful rep from Taco reached out and provided this information:
" this is a fairly common failure mode in open systems. The combination of oxygen and chlorine eats up the plastic and the EPDM seals"
So the IFC can be used in potable water but only if not chlorinated. On city water, most likely, it will fail.
On my end, going to replace the IFC with spring check with Viton seals.
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Using a tankless as the heat source. Those are rated for combi heat only.
exactly what does that mean? Is combi heat only a new type of heat? DHW heat. Central heat and the one that heats Combination seafood and steak platters?
Or did you mean DHW only or Central Heat only?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Use a hydronic check with a .50 psi pop pressure. Ideally the check is 6 pipe diameters downstream of the pump, also.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
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Exactly. This is why I questioned it being an open system. It sounds like a Radiantwreck open system mess using a tankless hot water heater to do the job that a boiler is designed to do. The failure of the IFC is just going to be the first of many problems with a system like that. It's not my house or one of my customers houses but I suggest giving up on a mess like that, putting in a proper boiler and running it as a closed system with all the piping in copper or oxygen barrier pex. But that's just me and that's how I do things. Seems to be working so far. Never had any problems with disintegrating flow check valves.
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Tankless units are certified for different standards than boilers. A boiler would be ANSI Z21.13/CSA 4.9 and a tankless unit is ANSI Z21.10.3, CSA 4.3.
Many moons ago Rinnai tankless units could be used for closed systems but that has now changed.
Most (at least the big name condensing ones) are still rated for combination heat+hot water use but this means you need to circulate potable water through your space heat loop. Despite what some say, this actually works pretty well, low cost and space efficient way to get space heat and DHW. Setup like this can be done in about a 3x3 mechanical room:
As with anything, it can also be done wrong, but at least from my limited experience (sample of a couple) it works very well.
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When i first installed Air Conditioning ductwork in my home over 40 years ago, I used a Hydro Coil off of my water heater. It was called "Apollo Hydro Heat" and I used an oil fired water heater. They ain't cheap. The system was a great idea and it did pump the potable water thru the space heating coil in the air handler. The problem was that my oil fired tank failed within the first 8 years. Not that long for an oil fires water heater. I was not a happy camper.
That is when I decided to install the Buderus Boiler, An indirect water heater and make the closed system the correct way. Still using one oil burner to heat both the water and the house today, but I have added 2 zones of Radiant floor heat. Couldn't get away with that on a water heater with fresh water in all that floor tubing. I see too many "Why does my heater not work?" because they used a water heater where they should use a heating boiler.
So, Been there, Done that, Got the tee shirt!
Now I help those with the problem to understand why they have the problem.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Navien now has the hydro furnace, which is an interesting concept for a forced air heating system.
NTI has a better set up in the GF150. I'm actually contemplating that unit so I can have a hydronic air handler and easily put in floor radiant in the living room.
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