New persistent apartment radiator leak despite change by plumber

ralphrepo

Hi all. Live in a 1960's NYC apartment, 2nd floor of a 6 floor elevator building. Generally well maintained. Had a radiator leak once about fifteen years ago and the entire unit was switched out by plumbers the super called in. All OK for years. Fast forward to tail end of last winter. For some unknown reason, noted the valves in both my bedroom and living room radiators started leaking at almost the same time. Banging and knocking had been a routine for years so we didn't pay much attention. But when it started leaking we first placed containers under them and it caught the majority of the leak, but after a few days, the volume of water over time became ridiculous. It was like someone had opened a faucet. Water filled the liter sized containers in less than five minutes. Called Super, brings plumbers, they replaced both units (bedroom, living room) and it was OK for a day or two, then started leaking again. Plumbers recalled. Readjusted pitch, changed valve, set control valve to certain position and I was told not to change it. Things were OK for about a week, then leaks started anew. Finally got so tired of dripping water we turned both off. That was at the beginning of Feb as weather warmed up, so we left it alone. Now in Oct, as weather cooling, the pipes were banging again as the building started getting ready for the fall/winter. Leaks returned. I will inform super that both are leaking again. But can anyone tell me why this problem suddenly occurred with both units going bad simultaneously? This to me (a non plumber) seems to indicate a systems problem rather than an individual unit failure? Or am I being off base here? What more can be done by the super to solve this issue? Thanks to all who answer. Cheers!

leonz

Being a novice;

Is this steam system a one pipe or two pipe system?

The radiator vent looks old enough that it was around when Godzilla was a rug rat.

I would suspect that it is a system over pressure/surging problem.

Are your neighbors having issues with their radiators? I guess the first question to the building super is "What is the system cut out pressure of the boiler on the pressuretrol?" The second question would be when was the boiler sump cleaned of mud and the pig tail cleaned??

ralphrepo

Thank you for taking an interest. Have zero idea what you're talking about, LOL… Again, I'm a non plumber so one vs two pipe is completely unknown to me. And yes, the radiator does look old. Again, building went up in the 1960's so whatever was standard in NYC around those times. Didn't ask neighbors but that will be my chore for today when I see any of them in the hall. I too, suspect something with the pressure settings of the system as they had recently changed the boiler and I think that's what did me in. As for sumps and pig tail? Have zero idea what those terms mean. But thanks!

JUGHNE

From the picture, this is obviously a single (one) pipe steam system.

The horizontal pipe coming out of the valve looks to be sloped down on the left end. If so, this would collect and hold water and could cause some water hammer.

The problem most likely starts at the boiler with the pressure set too high.

Is there any chance you can see the boiler and get some pictures of the controls?

I understand this might be difficult given the security of the building.

retiredguy

BY the way, where on that rad is the leak? If it is on the right side there is probably a bad thread, on the vent or rad, (actually a convector), the vent itself is leaking, the vent may also have a crack in it. Add a picture with an arrow for the leak point. Or , as @JUGHNE said, the boiler operating pressure may be set too high. You should also brush out the loose paint on the louvers above the convector.

mattmia2

Did you change anything with the valve position? You have to have the vale either all the way open or all the way closed or the convector will collect water.

AdmiralYoda

Do you know exactly where the water is coming out? Judging by the plastic container it is at the end of the convector. The chrome, shiny thing is the vent. Is the water coming out the top of the vent or the base where the threads go into into the convector?

The picture is dim but there seems to be a drain plug directly underneath the vent on the bottom side of the convector…is that leaking?

EBEBRATT-Ed

To much pressure is making the vent leak. Also as @jughne pointed out with the convector pitched the horizontal pipe coming out of the valve is holding condensater. Should be some swing joints ther to pitch the pipe properly but I would guess high pressure is the main recuring problem.

ralphrepo

Hi, All. Thanks to all who have taken the time to answer. Yes, water is spewing from the top of the chrome pointy vent at the end (on both radiators, in living room and bedroom, suggesting a system wide issue rather than a single mechanical fail on one radiator). The left leaning pitch of the whole unit was purposely set by the plumber and he told me while doing it that it needed to allowed cooled steam to return to the system without being pooled at the vent end of the radiator. So slanting it down to the left was supposed to do this. At the time, he also opened the valve midway and told me to leave it in that position because if opened too much, would be too much pressure in the radiator and it would leak at the vent. He suspected that there was an issue with boiler being set too high and that he would talk to the super about it. Looks like he may have been right. I spoke to the super and he said that a lot of other apartments seem to be having similar problems. He had a boiler guy down in the basement for several hours and I ran into them on my way out to go shopping. The boiler guy said give it week before trying again so I guess he needed some time to either purge the system or something along those lines. So hopefully they can solve this before the weather really drops. Thanks again to to all who have taken an interest and provided clues. Cheers!

leonz

I am sorry to hear that you received no real answer from this "boiler guy", as he gave you "NO real answer". I would want to see his steam license certification/steam fitters union card.

ralphrepo

I kind of got the impression that he needed to try a few things and wasn't exactly sure of what the precise problem was and in the process of narrowing it down. So that's likely why he didn't want to commit to anything. Well, thankfully, the weather is still warm enough not to worry too much. I'm just glad it seems system wide and not in particular to my apartment.

KC_Jones

On one pipe steam the valve should always be full open, closing it can cause issues. Steam is "small" water is "big" so you can cause steam to come in and water to not drain effectively. Open the valve, it isn't stopping any pressure unless it's closed completely, and then it won't heat. Open the valve fully as a first step.

You shouldn't have banging, ever, banging is indicative of water laying where it shouldn't be. Could be a pipe sag, could be improper pitch on a pipe, those issues aren't inside your unit, they are in the piping leading to your unit.

There shouldn't be water there in enough quantity to come out of the vent, if there is the problem is most likely not in your unit. High pressure can bring the water issue to light, but to me it's not the primary problem, water existing in the wrong place is the primary problem.

Pressure safety should be set to 1 psi max.

Final thought, we see a fair amount of posts here about problems in NYC apartments, I don't recall ever reading a reply about the building management actually fixing anything correctly. That's anecdotal, but is also concerning IMHO. I wish you best of luck and hope you get it fixed.

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1813796#Comment_1813796

You have to leave the valve fully opened or closed. If the valve is part way open the emitter is very likely to fill with condensate and spew out the vent like you are experiencing.

ARobertson13

jughene is correct that bottom section is not pitched correctly it has the same pitch as the radiating section so it will collect water. I have seen this someplace before. It looks like in the past there was a different radiator unit placed there. This radiator may have had a mid bottom steam supply connection. This radiator would protrude into the area above the vent. This may not be the only issue as far as water coming out. I would try to find out if this arrangement is present in other apartments

ralphrepo

OK, it's been a few days and the super never got back to me. But in the interim, I decided to "take a peek" by opening up the valve a few turns as I had heard the pipes banging in other apartments over the last two mornings. Hopefully, that "boiler guy" solved whatever issue it was. So turning open the valve ever so gently, it immediately starting banging and water was again spewing from the silver rocket thing at the end. Not fully opened, I allowed the water to gurgle for a few minutes hoping that it would eventually stop. And after a few minutes, it dissipated, being replaced instead with a steady hissing noise from the silver valve. As I think it's supposed to happen, I nudged the water valve open a few more quarter turns and the hissing got louder but no more banging and the radiator started getting hot. The water valve is opened about halfway now and the entire radiator is plenty hot as is, so I'm tempted to just leave it alone and not push my luck. If anything changes, I'll report back. Thanks again to all to took an interest in my heating problem.

mattmia2

THE VALVE MUST BE EITHER FULLY OPENED OR FULLY CLOSED. YOU CAN NOT USE THE VALVE TO REGULATE TEMP ON A 1 PIPE SYSTEM. IF IT IS PART WAY OPEN IT IS VERY LIKELY TO CAUSE THE CONDENSATE TO NOT DRAIN FROM THE EMITTER AS YOU ARE EXPERIENCING.

ralphrepo

OK, taking the advice of several of you, I reopened the water valve fully this morning, after there was a short brief episode of banging and spitting. I think it's most likely getting rid of whatever bad plumbing mojo remains and hopefully, that will be the end of the problem. Thanks again, all!

mattmia2

A slower vent could help if you still have problems.