Firebox question on old oil burner?

fsamo123

I have an old arcoliner oil boiler from late 1940s to 1950 era former older said he replaced fire box liner in 1985 my oil boiler repair company never told me condition of this and I never knew about it maintenance etc. I was told it might be an asbestos liner? So I was wondering how long do these firebox liners last on these old units?

Most people don’t mention anything about this

Jamie Hall

Might have been asbestos. If it was replaced in the '80s, though, that's very unlikely.

Liner last a long time if the aren't abused — and are easily replaced.

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811193#Comment_1811193

i wouldn't count on that. They were still putting asbestos in flooring products in to the late 80's and asphalt products at least in to the 90's.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Doubt it is asbestos if 1985

Steamhead

@fsamo123 , if it's not collapsing you should be fine. And the Arcoliner boilers were built like tanks. but you really should have someone look it over who knows these units.

Where are you located? We might know someone………………

EdTheHeaterMan

In the 1980s the Lynn Products company were making combustion chambers made of both fire brick and ceramic fiber. An Arcoliner from the 1940's may have been originally installed as a coal fired boiler but in the 50s most of them were installed as oil fired boilers that included a steel chamber. Those steel chambers would melt away and fall apart if someone over-fired the boiler, of if the nozzle got partially plugged and the flame was distorted causing flame impingement. Lynn Products came up with a Combustion chamber made specifically for that boiler that was made of ceramic fiber. That chamber has no asbestos in it as far as I know. It is just ceramic fiber.

https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Combustion-Chamber-Lynn-Install/dp/B008HQ75WK?th=1

This is called the Quickie combustion chamber. Once you were able to remove the lower door of the boiler (where the oil burner was mounted) then the job was really fast. No cement, No bricks, No assembly, just cut the round hole in front side of the chamber and hang the burner back on the door. There were a couple of pieces if ceramic fiber that you could use to wedge the chamber in place so it didn't move the next time you opened of the fire door to clean the boiler. But back in the day, a combustion chamber job could cost as much as $250.00 and take hours to place each brick in place with retort cement, then flash the chamber to cure the cement slowly over time to make the chamber last longer.

The Quickie would take about 45 minutes to an hour, and you could still charge a standard "Combustion Chamber Price" and make a nice profit!

fsamo123

this is the one I found in the firebox I’m going to sen it for testing. Does it look like the ceramic ones?

fsamo123

fsamo123

I’m a little worried oil company tech vacuumed it I don’t know if he used hepa filter.

fsamo123

old owner told me they put asbestos liner in there. But from shape etc it looks like one of those quickie drop in models. Everyone assumes old fireboxes were all asbestos. Anyhow I sen a piece to the lab

Steamhead

That looks like a later type of firebox, probably a "Quickie" made by Lynn Manufacturing. If so, it's Kaowool, not asbestos. But it can't hurt to test it.

EdTheHeaterMan

My bet is "NO ASBESTOS? on the firebox material. But the insulation that may have been dumped around it (if any) could be the old dry asbestos furnace cement we used to seal fire doors in the days before 1985 when we were all told that we were killing ourselves with that stuff.

fsamo123

owners son who was 15 at time of 1980s said it was asbestos everyone else says he is wrong I think you guys are right so I’ll give you results of lab when they come back. You old timers usually know your stuff quite well

fsamo123

you never know what’s actually in these old boilers asbestos etc. my father was a plumber and he used furnace cement on everything in a boiler I’m sure it dried out quickly and became dusty. Hopefully the soot glued it down. I have seen lots of plumber scraping out fire boxes, not even wetting them down with a cloud of dust surrounding their faces. Scary if you are doing this every day, occasionally should be no problem I seen asbestos furnace cement even in early 1990s I was my father helper so I had to get stuff from plumber bucket and nobody wets stuff down

fsamo123

thanks everyoneedyheheatingman said it’s a Lynn quickie ceramic quickie insert. I research Lynn manufacturing and they started in the year 2010. And this firebox was installed in early 1980. And yess it does look ceramic preformed etc but it had to be another company at that time period that what confused me I had house late 1980s and I’m positive firebox wasn’t replaced while had it. So they must of had somebody make these drop in fireboxes before Lynn manufacture started

EdTheHeaterMan

The Combustion chambers I speak of were made by the Lynn Company, of Lynn, Massachusetts. They have been in business making oil burner and oil burner parts and accessories for over 80 year. Although I can not find any records of Lynn Manufacturing before 2010, there was a Lynn Company that sold the combustion chamber you have in the 1980s. Since then the company that made Lynn Oil Burners and Combustion Chambers has changes to Lynn Manufacturing Inc. that makes those chambers today. Just because Lynn Manufacturing Inc only dates back to 2010, the combustion chambers they make with that trusted name dates back to the middle part of the 20th century. here is something from a trade journal from 1939.

And I remember purchasing that Quickie Chamber in 1982 from Wilmington supply Co on East Eleanor Street in Philadelphia, Pa. and installing it in a boiler just like yours

Steamhead

And IIRC, there was a company called Boston Machine that was either part of Lynn, or was a different name the company used for a time.

EdTheHeaterMan

@Steamhead Do you remember the Monogram Combustion Chamber company that was on 57th street in West Philadelphia? I remember going there to pick up OEM combustion chambers made of fire brick. They were Precast to the OEM boiler or furnace specs and came in as little as 2 or 4 pieces that fit perfectly in the customer's oil heater. Then one day in the 1980s the place burned to the ground. That is when Lynn geared up to make all the new chambers for OEM from that new fangled Ceramic Fiber stuff. Monogram never rebuilt… so the age of Clay or Firebrick chambers was over.

fsamo123

thanks to edtheheaterman not to many people know the history of these things it’s a dying art I always check for factual confirmation and would of never found the info you just sent I did research etc I’m 70 years old now and these thing bring back a lot of memories. I wish things were built as well as some of these old units etc.but then I guess that manufacturers wouldn’t stay in business So the new norm is 20 years and buy a new one. Most of old timers on this forum really know their stuff. These young kids could learn a lot from us and once again thank you

mattmia2

A Mercoid thermostat? Armtrong started out with cork flooring?

fsamo123

edtheheatman. I was thinking that firebox I have was from Sid Harvey’s and that maybe the old owners kid was right when he said they relined it with asbestos liner. But the liner looked like a tub and most every liner I saw with tub was always a ceramic one I know old units had asbestos firebrick or asbestos furnace refractory

Cement liners , but that looks like it was made in like one piece. I didn’t check back of burner door

To see if it had material on that but from what you said it sounds like that never had anything on it because original arco design had no liners

These tech they send from oil company look at unit and are afraid to touch firebox saying that looks like asbestos and they just vacuum it everyone I showed pictures of it swears it’s a prefab ceramic drop in one and say these kids are too young and don’t know anything about was an asbestos lined firebox looks like.

They all say unit it too old and inefficient but I like very old stuff cause it last forever any how I clip a small piece of liner and sent it to lab to know. My 80 year old plumber uncle said he never saw a tub liner have asbestos So I’m joust waiting for the results. But Ed everything you have said has been correct You have worked on these so I’m sure you know your stuff and thank you I feel more relieved. I was very upset when young kid oil company technician vacuumed that firebox with shop vac then said it’s probably asbestos in liner so he won’t change it I have very young grand kid that play in room next to boiler so I freaked out. He didn’t use a hepa filter vacuum. They say liners from 1980 s all had asbestos

fsamo123

I’m also having black stuff by the hole cutout tested it either a black buildup of soot or furnace cement that what I’m worried about don’t understand why they would put furnace cemeny

in that corner.

Steamhead

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811686#Comment_1811686

No, unfortunately that was before my time.

fsamo123

my old plumber uncle thinks it is old hard soot but I was thinking furnace cement but uncle thinks I’m wrong

EdTheHeaterMan

When Arcoliners were installed as OEM Oil fired boilers, they came with a steel combustion chamber in many cases. Those steel chambers would fall apart in 5 to 10 years. No one wanted to put another steel chamber back in them, so they would select the Quickie chamber because it was made to fit that boiler. That ceramic fiber combustion chamber lasted a lot longer that the original steel one.

Grallert

That tub has seen it's last days. Can it be patched? Sure. Should it be replaced? Yes. It's a glass fiber tub and has no asbestos in it and it's not likely there is any asbestos in the in the chamber itself.

pecmsg

No one can look at a picture and tell. Samples need to be taken and analyzed.

EdTheHeaterMan

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811799#Comment_1811799

Experienced personnel who have worked on that type equipment all their lives (like me) can look and tell what that stuff is. I guarantee there is no asbestos in the fire box. Test it and see! let us know what you find. As far as pipe insulation, or other construction materials in the building are concerned… Only the dead men that installed that stuff know.

neilc

even if that is a safe liner, was what it replaced ACM? and thereby contaminated?

just asking the question, I don't know myself, how far down rabbit holes do you want to go?

It's a boiler, test it

fsamo123

I’m posting pictures of the tub everyone thinks it’s ceramic not asbestos but I have service contract with oil company Slomin oil and their technicians keep trying to tell me get rid of it it’s old etc and firebox. Might be asbestos . They told me this 20 years ago too still working lol. Anyhow I opened boiler access door and I have full view of the firebox . The top of the tub liner looks like one piece somehow fabricated and extends to the sections and rear of boiler . Orange and rocky looking . The quickie inserts from Lynn products look like just a tub. So I’m worried the top of liner that extends on top of firebox could somehow be asbestos. I really don’t see any furnace cement etc in chamber or did those Lynn products fireboxes have the top sections like I show in my pictures

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811759#Comment_1811759

The problem with this is that some materials that were sold as non-asbestos contained asbestos. Unless you have tested a few there is likely no way to know. Some of the non-asbestos joint compound contained asbestos. there was a weird rule form I think 1991 to 2017 that materials with less than 1% asbestos were not asbestos containing materials.

I'm not sure I see how a soot vac can not effectively be hepa without the rating without spreading soot everywhere.

pecmsg

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811801#Comment_1811801

Can you or I Legally make that statement?

As a certified supervisor I would never make it without a lab certifying it is or isn't.

EdTheHeaterMan

lets see what the Lab Report says

fsamo123

anyhow from the comments I have heard and my research on people with that unit and old owner info. I was wondering why if unit was made in 1950s would firebox would need replacing were they originally asbestos firebrick lined or refractory cement etc so my guess is that original firebox didn’t have liner and owner said he had to replace oil burner in 1980s and they were high velocity now so to protect the firebox they installed a new ceramic one with the burner. I seen this particular model from 1950s clean with no liner on other posts from people asking about the insulation, So you guys who worked on them this the original ones have any type of asbestos liner before. Or did this unit come with ceramic in 1950s when everything was full of asbestos? I don’t think if it came with a liner it would of needed replacement after 30 years especially how well those units were made back then

Thank you everyone only you probably know this stuff cause you actually worked on this stuff

Ps do you think top of tub that extends to back wall and sides to cast iron sections is also ceramic part of liner?

fsamo123

I tried verifying age of unit I think jJ3 on plate means it’s from1950s old owner told me it’s from 1920s I said no way

leonz

I don't think you will a definite answer until the top cover comes off and you can see if there is a builders plate welded in the top corner of the steam chest with all the build information and the H stamp.

fsamo123

still waiting for lab results

Question is if this tub is ceramic what type of liner was there originally ?firebrick mortar? Everything during this time period used asbestos to better insulate. Or a steel liner like Edtheheatingman implied? Only people who worked on these would be familiar with this . Not to many people left to ask

Dave Carpentier

Sidenote, I guess.. when we hear "asbestos" it might churn up some fear, but there are two (or more?) types of asbestos. The type that is of concern is the one that is little "rod" shaped fibres. They can get embedded in your lung sacs , which then can cause problems (or not). The "curly" ones get coughed back out. If the lab test shows asbestos, it will likely also mention what type of fibres it is.

EdTheHeaterMan

I used to work on them in 1970s, and there were lots of Arcoflames in the Philadelphia area, You had a Steel Chamber and the burner was probably an Arco Piggyback that hung on a hook just above the air tube opening. That was designed to bounce out of the way to relieve pressure from a delayed ignition (Puff Back). And if you needed to remove the burner from the boiler, you just rotated the burner UP away from the fire door and lift it off the hook.

The weight of the burner held it in place. And that was more than enough weight. The burner housing was made of a thick cast iron.

fsamo123

so Ed when they put ceramic tub in unit did they remove the steel chamber. I saw pictures of the steel ones all deformed by the heat. Because everyone is saying before they put ceramic tub there likely was asbestos in there. So if they removed steel tub with the new ceramic ones made specifically for that unit is should be ok I saw steel tubs out of the units. I know anything is possible they might of left some asbestos under the tub but likelihood is very low if steel tub was removed. Everything you have said has been right. Very few people have your knowledge and yes with your experience you can look at the chamber and be 99% accurate.

I have summer home in Pennsylvania and old timers up there still use these units and they agree with you this unit is in ny but people in Pennsylvania these were very common

fsamo123

as a side note I do know a lot about the 3 main forms of asbestos white,brown and blue. Most of products in United States 95% were white chrystolite and rest mostly brown and other impurities. Back in 1950 to 1980 every thing had it pretty much insulating products and fireproof.

I used to see asbestos firebrick asbestos flrefractory mortars and pipe wrap everywhere

Scary when you look in fire place or firebox and see these bricks all crumbling with dust etc and you wonder am I’m breathing this stuff . Most of us don’t have any asbestos diseases and we all lived in houses like this. My father was a contractor and he just used to pull stuff off of the pipes and you actually see sparking dust everywhere but nobody knew back then. Even ceramic cement cilia dust fiberglass etc in excess is gong to cause something the average person didn’t get sick only when excessively exposed I also heard from some people that under high heat white asbestos properties make it swell and become less harmful. I think above 1300 Celsius from 700 Celsius on to 1300c and on gets less dangerous I don’t know if that is true or not. The brown stuff scare me because the body can’t break it down and it stays in lungs for decades causing scarring etc. it all comes down to being lucky and being smart and keeping exposure levels low as you can. But I do often seen crumbling firebricks etc in fireboxes and remember seeing it a lot in old days