Order of Firomatic Valve and Oil Filter at Tank Side

AnthVale

My oil tank had a Firomatic valve being held open with a pair of pliers (CRAZY).

I ordered a new valve, and I plan to add a small shut-off valve to the Tank's Outlet first, followed by some combination of the Fireomatic Valve + Oil Filter but I am not sure what should come first. In my mind, I want the oil filter first so the valve has clean, setiment-free oil going through it so it doesn't clog. But, everything I'm finding online seems to have the valve first, then the filter…

There is a filter + tiger loop at the boiler, too, but I want another filter at the tank. Open to thoughts

Also, out of curiousity, there is no check valve on the oil line. I understand when some oil lines are gravity-fed to the boiler there is no need since it can't come back up but my line goes horizontal for about 30 feet, then, goes up about 3 feet to the boiler.

Should I also add a check valve here?

One last thing. I have a few plans in mind on how to make the change and want to see what some other people think:

Option 1: Pull off old valve and quickly screw on new shutoff valve using a drip tray under everything.

Option 2: I've seen people use shop vacs to create a vacuum on top of tank to limit or eliminate oil spill from outlet. I read to use a vac that's not self-cooling since the air coming in will be oil fumes and can start fires.

Option 3: Jack up one side of tank slightly so no oil is able to flow out the outlet.

There is only about 1/3, maybe a 1/4 tank of oil.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

EBEBRATT-Ed

You can use a shop vac if it is powerful enough. Plug vent or fill and attach vac to the pipe that is not plugged. I would put firomatic on tank then a ball valve shut off then the filter. If you can pull the firomatic stem up and it springs down it should be ok just buy a new handwheel for the firomatic if sold separately.

AnthVale

I've heard it's dangerous to use a vacuum that self-cooled because you're vacuuming oil fumes/ I don't have a proper vac. I think I'm gonna try to avoid that. Do you think it's possible for me to quickly unscrew the old valve and quickly screw something on with a pan underneath?

This is what I'm currently working with (see photo below). Sorry for the lighting.

You don't think I should start with a shutoff valve first so that when the next Fireomantic valve fails I can shut the valve before it for service?

My thought was to go Shut off valve, filter, firomatic. I figured the firomatic would last longer with filtered oil going through it. This tank is old and I know has sediment.

When you say stem are you referring to the middle "bolt" loonger threaded rod or the outside gate valve looking circular piece?

when I purchase the property the silver threaded rod in held up with a pair of pliers. I knew right away the valve is broken.

Is there a chance I only need to replace a piece?

Thanks, @EBEBRATT-Ed

Big Ed_4

:) ..No……. Its a old side tap , replace the tank or leave it alone …..

AnthVale

What do u mean by leave it alone? The current state the fireomatic valve is closed because it's broken. I at least need to replace that.

EBEBRATT-Ed

The threaded stem on the valve is supposed to protrude through the hole in the cap. The cap is soldered to a small inner piece with threads on it. The solder used is low temp solder that melts in case of fire. Sometimes the solder breaks without a fire.

You probably just need to replace the little hand wheel. Pull up on the hand wheel and the valve should open it is spring loaded to spring to the closed position. Pull up on the cap and hold the threaded stem with needle nose pliers and try and unscrew the little hand wheel. You can get a new hand wheel and put it on. Since the tank is old I would not distrub it to replace the valve unless you have no other choice. If you want to add a filter add it at the burner.

AnthVale

Ok, so I've tried to play around with the wheel part but I can't seem to get it off. It does lift up and it's spring loaded. But, when I twist either clock or counter clock-wise it just spins. I have prepared a video of me doing so here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SzhsIfWRWROmb8vZyr_7z8z00ar0PlJ0/view?usp=sharing

EBEBRATT-Ed

Like I told you pull up on the spring-loaded stem and hold the stem so it can't turn with needle nose pliers and then take the hand wheel off.

AnthVale

I think understand now. Sorry, it's very tight and dark in the space where the valve is.

So, you're saying pull up like this and put the plyers here (see below), then unscrew wheel and replace? Is the wheel where the solder lives that melts to activate the valve?

Thanks again @EBEBRATT-Ed

EdTheHeaterMan

I'm going to bet you that you just need to remove the handwheel that opens the valve. Do what @EBEBRATT-Ed suggested. Once you get the handwheel off, then you will want to wire brush off the threads on the valve stem. That valve in the video is working just fine, The stem is just unattached inside the valve. That is why the stem is spinning. If you hold the stem, you can remove the handwheel.

Once the hand wheel is removed and you clean the threads on the stem, You can reinstall that same handwheel with the pliers holding the stem. After you get the threads of the stem to go thru the top of the handwheel, Then you can use the pliers to hold the top of the stem and continue to twist the valve open. I would suggest that you not go all the way open. You don't want to bottom out the threads so they get stuck in the full open position.

I am posting you this catalogue picture so you can see how the valve looks when open with the threads sticking thru the handwheel

It appears that you have part number 12320 fusible tank valve that is installed on a street 90° elbow.

You can use what you already have. I have serviced oil filters for years, using a valve with the rotating stem. I just hold the stem while spinning the handwheel.

As far as using a soot vac or shop vac to cause the tank to not spill oil during a valve swap, You are in no danger with #1 Kerosene or #2 fuel oil. Those fuels have a much higher flashpoint temperature when compared to gasoline. The self cooling motors sparks will not blow up with oil fumes. I have used that trick hundreds of times in my career. I'm still alive to tell you about it. Just sont try it on a tank filled with gasoline. That will have a really big boom and you will need to get a new vacuum cleaner.

AnthVale

@EdTheHeaterMan It seems whoever had pulled this stem up before and had a pair of vise grips attached to it have destroyed the threads. I was able to get the wheel off but now I cannot spin the new wheel on because the stem is just spinning with it. I have wire brushed it very well and at close examination it just seems the threads are ruined. I'm wondering, should I try to rethread this somehow or replace the entire valve? I have a small video of them spinning simultaneously if you want to see that.

And, if I replace the entire valve, could I just put a drip bucket underneath it and quickly spin on a new valve? Or is it something like that not recommended? I was hoping to avoid the whole vacuum thing.

Thanks again,

EdTheHeaterMan

As far as trying to re-thread that stem… it is a reverse (left hand) thread. not likely to get a tap like that anywhere.

How much oil is in the tank now. The vacuum thing is the only way I would do this if there is oil in the tank. The weight of the oil in the tank will determine how much vacuum you need, so a full tank will require a good deal of vacuum, and that vacuum will cause the tank to implode slightly, not a lot but enough to see.  That may cause oil in the tank to get sucked into the vacuum. I would wait until you have at least 3/4 of a tank. That gives you a 1/4 tank of air buffer, so the imploding tank will not force oil out.

Do not do this with a tank full of gasoline. Fuel oil is combustible not Flammable like gasoline. So the vacuum thing is safe if done properly.  You are not going to explode if the fumes get to the vacuum motor.

For now, You can lift the valve stem with pliers, then grab the stem near the bottom with vice grip locking pliers and get the oil to flow.

When you have the replacement valve in hand, then put the vac hose on the vent pipe and remove the old valve. While the air is flooding into the tank keeping the oil at bay, put the new valve in place.  Then shut off the vacuum.  Doing this same swap without the vacuum will get you very wet and not water wet. The icky oily kind of wet.  And you may not get it right the first time. Then what will you do?

OR… You can just wait for the tank to be empty!

EdTheHeaterMan

If you can get the threads started just one complete thread… Try pulling up on the valve stem with the handle and turning it with that tension, to see if the stem stops turning for that 1/4 turn. Or call the oil company and see if they will swap out the valve for you.

AnthVale

Great stuff, @EdTheHeaterMan

I'd say there's a little less than a third of a tank. Although, I will need to get my hands on a bigger shop vac. Mine is quite small.

As far as waiting until it's empty, what about the sediment? I don't normally run it that low but I'm thinking if I profit up with pliers for now and just get the heat on and run it low I can do this much easier. I'm guessing the sediment isn't above the valve but I'm not sure?

I'm guessing when I do go to fill it afterwards I shouldn't dump oil in there and disturb all of the sediment and then run my oil boiler soon after?

I'm thinking I'll look for a Shop-Vac... I have to think about this.

EdTheHeaterMan

1/3 tank. the small shop vac should work just fine.

AnthVale

I understand. Let me go try that. I did try to hold the bottom of the stem with needlenose pliers just to see if I could turn the wheel a few turns on and it was just very challenging.

AnthVale

Ugh (see photo below), I was thinking... Perhaps if I found a nut the same size as this stem if I used a high-powered drill with a lot of torque if it would cut through those threads without the stem spinning.

Maybe hold it with players and use a tap/die?

Regarding, The Shop-Vac. It is about the size of one of those Home Depot bucket shop vacs. It's old and does ok actually.

So, I have about 1/4 tank now that I look at it.

UPDATE: I'm able to thread wheel on a couple of threads and pull up to create tension but the threads are just so bad it will not thread past those.

Thanks

EdTheHeaterMan

Those threads are shot. and they are also reverse threads… Left hand threads…. in other words they are backwards. So there are no nuts in your tool chest that have that thread. They do that on purpose. That way some homeowner, that is smarter that any of us, can't put a couple of washers and a 1/4-20 nut on there to outsmart the Fir-o-Matic hand wheel.

AnthVale

Thank you Ed, my new issue is it seems I bought the wrong size.

Is It okay to use adapters to get down to this or should I just buy the right size one?

Also, if I already have one of these valves at my boiler do I need to have two by law? I may prop up this stem until I get the proper valve because it's getting very cold. Thank you again for all your help.

mattmia2

Try a jeweler's file to get rid of the burs. That looks like it is acme thread so it will be hard to find a die for it. If it were a standard sae/uss or metric thread you can get left hand thread dies but since it looks square on the edges it looks like it is acme thread.

EBEBRATT-Ed

If you use the angle firomatic the flow through it will be in reverse.

AnthVale

Thanks, @hot_rod and @EdTheHeaterMan

Filing it seems to have helped. I was able to get it to this point.

Currently it threads relatively easily until the stem is about flush with the wheel. Then, both stem and wheel begin spinning together again. But, if I grab the stem with the needle nose I can continue spinning the wheel to the point where it's at in the photo below. I stopped spinning it so it may be able to go more (and now I believe the stem stays while I spin).

I guess I don't understand how the valve works. Are the threads inside the wheel supposed to melt? If so, does the wheel need to "easily" spin on the stem for this to work, or can I just get it to where I have now and be good?

Thank you,

HVACNUT

Maybe it's the pic, but it looks like 1/2" out out the tank, bushed down to 3/8" at the elbow, and you have a 1/4" Firomatic.

I would build a whole new 1/2" assembly in brass and a Globe valve. It doesn't need to be a Firomatic valve there. Go to 1/4" flare after the valve.

Prep the new assembly. All tight, clean around the tank, plug the vent, vac hose in the fill with rags to air seal. Start vacuum. Spin out the old. Spin in the new.

2 person job. Maybe have some Xanax handy for after if you're the jumpy type.

SuperTech

Im the past I've had luck with putting a worn out firomatic wheel on the valve upside down and getting the valve to open all the way when I didn't have a replacement wheel.

EdTheHeaterMan

The valve in your hand is designed to be installed in a fuel pump. The copper line to the tank gets installed at the flare end. If you look at part number 12230 in my post above from Sept 22 you can clearly read the valve description 3/8 ODF inlet x 1/4" MPT outlet. Also DO NOT use teflon tape as a thread sealer on fuel lines. It voids the fuel pump warranty, and small pieces of tape may come loose and foul up the fuel pump pressure regulator, cut off valve regulator, and/or clog the nozzle orifice.

@AnthVale Said:

I guess I don't understand how the valve works. Are the threads inside the wheel supposed to melt? *NO SEE BELOW If so, does the wheel need to "easily" spin on the stem for this to work, **NO SEE BELOW or can I just get it to where I have now and be good? YES

*The actual hand wheel has no threads on it. There is a bushing type insert with threads that match the threads on the stem. Those two parts, the hand wheel and the threaded insert are soldered together with a mixture of lead and tin that will melt at about 500°F to 1000°F so the spring loaded stem will shut off and prevent additional fuel from leaving the fuel line (or tank in your case).

**On a new valve, the stem does not spin, however if someone goes too tight, or torques it too much the little nub on the stem inside the valve can be crushed causing the stem to spin.

 It's not rocket surgery! It is just simple physics

AnthVale

Thank you, @EdTheHeaterMan

Even though The stem is spinning a little, I am able to turn the wheel and get it all the way down now somewhat easily. Using your tactic pulling up and getting tension and spinning a little bit helps along the way.

With that said, this should be in working order then, correct? I'm wondering if the previous wheel was just in good working order and the threads were the issue. And that's why the previous person who owned my home had the pliers holding the valve open.