Lukewarm/fluctuating Hot Water with Recirculation Pump

slickplate

We've had fluctuating hot water on all showers/faucets since we moved into this house with the builder installed recirculation pump. We noticed the problem when we first moved and, while under warranty, the builder sent a plumber who said the pump's cartridge was getting stuck. He replaced the whole pump since he didn't have the cartridge on hand. It seemed to work well for about a year since we noticed no fluctuations.

Now it started doing the same thing and I personally replaced the cartridge with an OEM one but the problem is the same: fluctuating water temps.

I am wondering if the setup done by the builder is correct. Is the pump installed in the right direction?

If so, what else could it be?

Pump:

Taco 008-IQSF6-IFC

Intplm.

Hmm…where to begin?

If this problem is as you say and not changing when thoughts in service are applied. I would suggest not using the recirc. Bypass the thing and see if that helps. Why is there recirc in the first place? Is it really necessary?

After bypassing look at the fixtures. Check to see if the problem goes away. If the problem does go away in some but not all of the fixtures you can troubleshoot that.

SteveSan

You have our "Smart Pump". Do you know what mode you are in, Smart or Pulse?

If the Mode LED is solid, you are in Smart Mode. It will learn your usage for the week and bring on the pump the following week during those times. It will learn week to week, so if you change your habit, then you might want to be in Pulse Mode.

If flashing, you are in Pulse Mode. You have the option to have the pump run 1-10 minutes ( factory set to 3 minutes ) and then off for 10 minutes.

The arrow on the casing if pointing down, so that is your direction of flow.

Please give Taco Technical Services a call during normal business hours Mon-Fri 8am-5pm EST 401-942-8000 and just ask for Technical Services.

slickplate

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810124#Comment_1810124

I have it on Pulse mode. Do you know the purpose of the external sensor? What does it do?

Has the pump been reliable for you? I wonder if maybe mine is defective.

slickplate

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810113#Comment_1810113

Thanks for the suggestion, it should help isolate the problem. I know nothing about plumbing, so how can I bypass the pump?

I do need the pump because without it hot water takes 3+ minutes to reach some places.

slickplate

I also have noticed that if the pump comes on when I am taking a shower then the water gets hot as normal, but as soon as it shuts off, it gets lukewarm again. (The pump runs for 3 minutes every 10 minutes)

SteveSan

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810131#Comment_1810131

The external sensor needs to be wired to the controller in order for the pump to work.

In the Smart Mode, the sensor will sense a rise in temp and record it for the following week.

As long as the pump was properly sized and installed correctly, it should last awhile. Unfortunately, hard to put a time table because it depends on to many variables.

Was the system purged of air? Can you take an amp reading off the motor. The 008 should draw 0.84 amps under normal conditions.

slickplate

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810135#Comment_1810135

Not sure if it was purged. What's the best way to do it?

Dave H_2

It looks like you have a hybrid water heater (heat pump design with back up electric elements).

This type of recirculation logic (continuous pulse) is usually not recommended by the manufacturers of hybrid style water heaters. These water heaters have such a long recovery time when running in heat pump mode that when the pumps run excessively, it cools down the water heater too quickly.

The job of a recirculation system circulator is to not pump a ton of hot water around the house, it just needs a trickle to keep the pipes "primed". It sounds like your pump is working fine.

With hybrid water heaters, it is suggested to use an "on-demand" type of recirculation logic. Smart pulse as @SteveSan was suggesting is better with what you already have while the Genie is better for the operation and recovery of your water heater.

slickplate

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810137#Comment_1810137

Thanks for the suggestion. Yes, it's a hybrid water heater. The builder's plumber installed the pump on Pulse so that supposedly we would have hot water almost instantly. I will change it to Smart mode and see if it makes a difference.

Dave H_2

When changing it to pulse, it is going to take 7 days to learn your patterns. For these next 7 days, it will still operate in the pulse mode until it learns so you will not notice anything different right away.

What brand water heater do you have? I would like to look into the information as to their recommendations.

slickplate

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810141#Comment_1810141

AO Smith

Model HPTU-50N 130

Dave H_2

Page 13 of the installation guide with this model does not recommend a recirc loop in order to maximize the economy of operation. However, these instructions were written in 2015 and maybe they have done other research and testing with their units and have recommendations.

Also on this page, which may help more with your water temperature fluctuations is maybe adding a Thermostatic mixing valve as they show in the middle of the instructions.

slickplate

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810145#Comment_1810145

Thanks again. Well, this might be the issue. Maybe the recirculation pump is not intended for this water heater. Will change to smart mode and report back in a week

Dave H_2

When changing it to pulse, it is going to take 7 days to learn your patterns. For these next 7 days, it will still operate in the pulse mode until it learns so you will not notice any difference for at least a week, so you may need two weeks before the change

retiredguy

I have no idea as to how the pump you have operates since I have never seen that pump but let me ask the others if there should be a check valve in the recirc line to prevent cold water from backing up the recirc line.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, I do not see a check valve in the recirc line. Is there one in the pump? If not, you probably are getting flow backwards through the reirc line when water is used, which will give temperature fluctuations.

Yours, Larry

Dave H_2

@Larry Weingarten and @retiredguy,

This model has the check valve installed internally at the discharge flange the part number "Taco 008-IQSF6-IFC" has IFC at the end denoting the Integral Flow Check is installed in the circulator when shipped from the factory.

Yes, I have had that happen at times as well 😎

Intplm.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810133#Comment_1810133

A bypass would need to be piped. I would follow what @SteveSan says above for now. Hopefully, that should put you on the right track.

hot_rod

Is all the hot water and return piping insulated?

The gpm that the pump needs to move is dependent on the heat loss in the loop. Sizing info in this issue of idronics

That is what the sensor on the return is looking at, assuring the entire loop dropped about 10 degrees

Really it is the most remote fixture that you want hw delivered to, it can drop lower on the return after that, it just costs you more operating $$

If the loop is not insulated it may be better to start the pump only when you use hot water, a “demand” system.

A number of way to do that with door switches, proximity switched, etc

The sensors are usually a 105- 110 temperature, so the return needs to be that warm if the pump is sensor controlled, to shut the pump off.

If you have a 120V hp, you could have more loop loss than what the tank can keep up with?

What temperature is the tank set at?

Often times the HP are set to 140, and a mixing valve used. This gives you more draw down and better temperature stability. But the correct valve or a bypass needs to be piped with a thermostatic valve

A Caleffi 520 valve is a good option for HPWH, no bypass is needed

You need a check on incoming cold, and a thermal expansion tank, perhaps

https://idronics.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/magazine/file/idronics_33_na.pdf

retiredguy

Is this pump "mounting specific"? By that I mean, that most pumps with a check valve in the discharge can not be mounted with the check valve pointing down which would allow the check to remain open all the time. I would check the mounting directions to see if the pump needs to be rotated so the water flow is up and not down as it is in your case. I also read somewhere that the check valve is an optional item. Your problem may be that the pump is mounted incorrectly and will have to re-piped to get the flow direction correct.

slickplate

After much tinkering around, I figured out that the problem is once again a faulty IFC. As explained in my first post, I had changed the IFC right before coming here. It seems that new replacement was also faulty- it was stuck open. I have once again changed it and it works good… for now. Seems to be a flaw of this pump. This is the 4th IFC in less than 3 years.

hot_rod

what had it stuck open?. Dirt or scale? Perhaps a y strainer upstream would help.

retiredguy

Have you gotten this system to operate properly or is it still a problem?If itis still not working properly then I believe that the pump is mounted incorrectly as I wrote above.

slickplate

@hot_rod It looked to me like a very small piece of scale was keeping it open. Yet again, this is my 4th IFC. Seems like they're prone to getting stuck open.

@retiredguy Has been working good since September, but I am almost positive it will happen again. At least now I know for sure that the problem is the IFC. I even bought an extra one to have on hand.

Thanks again to all for the help.

Teemok

@slickplate 4th IFC replaced? You are tolerant. If it is just bits of scale cleaning the IFC might be possible but….. you know the old saying about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. It might be worth installing a different type of check.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, It looks like there's room under the pump to install a threaded spring check. To @Teemok 's point, a plumber could not afford so many free service calls, all while looking bad and badder to the client. With the valves you have, getting to a threaded spring check wouldn't be very difficult if it needed service. Could be that sediment from the water heater is making its way to the present check. If so, the problem is not going away.

Yours, Larry

RickDelta

Look at that check valve that came with your circulator.

The one that came with my circulator was pure junk! ….. simply holding it (a new one) with slight pressure from your fingers, it would fall a part into three pieces!! (no joke!) : (

I would put an external spring check unit in instead.

hot_rod

doesn’t matter what type of spring check you use, debris, and just a single particle can hold them open.

If you install sensitive valves in plumbing or heating applications, a y strainer is cheap insurance for protecting them and eliminating frequent cleaning or replacement.

That same neoperl check used in circulators is also used in seperate spring check bodies. It is 3 pieces to be serviceable and inserting it into the body locks the 3 pieces together.

Larry Weingarten

Hi @slickplate , Here's a sketch I did many moons ago. As you have a flex connector, you could install a ball valve on the tank, then a brass or stainless threaded T. Up from the T could be a check valve and straight out from the T another ball valve with a hose adapter. This would allow you to flush sediment from the tank a bit and also to use water pressure to flush the check valve, if needed. No sweating needed. 😓 Also no disassembly needed to put things right.

Yours, Larry

HomerJSmith

I had an IFC pump that gave me fits. It happened that the IFC was installed backward in the volute. Gasp, now I check to make sure it is installed correctly. Why is experience such a painful teacher?

RickDelta

@HomerJSmith

Our maintenance guy change out the squirrel cage blower wheel for the draft inducer. It would not work with this replacement.

The rotation was correct, but would not pull in the vacuum switch.

……. The replacement blower wheel's "curved vanes" were left handed as opposed to being right handed! : )