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Tankless with X3® Scale Prevention Technology?

RickDelta
RickDelta Member Posts: 483
in Gas Heating
Does anyone know exactly what their doing in there for the Scale Prevention?
How is this system different from my Rinnai Cu199iN?

Comments

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,312
    MAGIC?

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 483
    Looks to me more like marketing than technology!
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 483
    They state that " we pass the scaling impurities out of the system"

    I'm guessing that means they are simply purging the heat exchanger with cold water after a heat call ....... sending the purged water down the drain?
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 483
    edited February 10
    After reading up on "lime scale" (calcium and magnesium) build-up and its damaging effects it does to everything containing water (boilers, heat exchangers, laundry washers, shower heads, faucets, distribution piping, ect) ........ that the best mitigation is to eliminate these from the water source before they even enter in. (ie: water softener)
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 668
    It's a scale inhibitor treatment filter that's built-in the unit versus piping one before the unit.
    It adds approx $300 to the base model.




    Similar to this
    https://www.aquapurefilters.com/store/product/200106.200095/aqua-pure-ap430ss.html
    polyphosphates

  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 483
    dko said:

    It's a scale inhibitor treatment filter that's built-in the unit versus piping one before the unit.
    It adds approx $300 to the base model.




    Similar to this
    https://www.aquapurefilters.com/store/product/200106.200095/aqua-pure-ap430ss.html
    polyphosphates

    ......... Brutal Juice! : ) ....... its just a water softener cartridge!

    so, I can add this to any system I want.
    (but won't be getting the marketing extended warranty)
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 483
    edited February 10
    I've been pondering a system wide water softener for my Hotel/Motel and laundromat clients. The costs for these commercial sized units are very expensive (ie: $30K +) ...... a hard sell indeed! : (

    So, I'm designing a cost effective system targeted to just this market.
    I've eliminated the central monolithic and complex valving and replaced it with simple standard valves about its peripheral under an inexpensive PLC (Programmable Logic Controller).









  • hilltown
    hilltown Member Posts: 28
    Wow it states virtually zero lifetime descaling maintenance, even over 10 years that is a sizeable amount of savings not needing to do a annual descale..

    Cost of the cartridge could wipe that savings out depending on the frequency of cartridge replacement which is determined by water use.

    Does your CU199 have this built in?
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 483
    hilltown said:

    Wow it states virtually zero lifetime descaling maintenance, even over 10 years that is a sizeable amount of savings not needing to do a annual descale..

    Cost of the cartridge could wipe that savings out depending on the frequency of cartridge replacement which is determined by water use.

    Does your CU199 have this built in?

    NO ! but could be added easily! I would need the large capacity cartridges @ $400 a cartridge! : (
    ..... and how long before I need to change out cartridges??
    sounds like a long term expensive proposition!
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,466
    edited February 10
    This is not new technology. Cuno had had this for years. Very common to add this filter before a tankless coil on hot water boilers. It does not soften the water but merely adds a "food based" chemical that stops the scale from sticking to piping.
    https://www.plumbingsupply.com/scale-inhibitor.html
    RickDelta
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,579
    Hi, @RickDelta . A polyphosphate treatment like @kcopp brings up, is probably safer than salt-softening as it is not corrosive to copper or stainless.

    Yours, Larry
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 483
    Larry Weingarten said:

    Hi, @RickDelta . A polyphosphate treatment like @kcopp brings up, is probably safer than salt-softening as it is not corrosive to copper or stainless.

    Yours, Larry

    Brine Solution is a highly concentrated solution, created from the salt in the tank, that “washes” the resin beads (only during isolated regeneration) by forcing the minerals out of the resin beads and replaces them with the sodium ions. The drain is where the brine solution, and the hardness minerals, are flushed away from the softener.
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,579
    Hi @RickDelta , Salt softening uses an ion exchange process, replacing calcium and magnesium ions with sodium ions in the water. This makes the water feel softer. One thing it does is increase conductivity of the water, making anodes in water heaters get used up roughly three or four times faster. Also it's common medical advice to not drink softened water in order to avoid extra sodium in the diet. I said what I did above because more conductive water has the ability to be more corrosive than soft (like rain) water.

    Yours, Larry
    GGross
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 483
    edited February 11
    Larry Weingarten said:

    Hi @RickDelta , Salt softening uses an ion exchange process, replacing calcium and magnesium ions with sodium ions in the water. This makes the water feel softer. One thing it does is increase conductivity of the water, making anodes in water heaters get used up roughly three or four times faster. Also it's common medical advice to not drink softened water in order to avoid extra sodium in the diet. I said what I did above because more conductive water has the ability to be more corrosive than soft (like rain) water.

    Yours, Larry

    Hi Larry! : ) ..... thanks for the info!

    So, I do want to reap the benefits yet mitigate the downsides of soften water use.

    In re: the commercial use of facility wide water softeners, the benefits seem to overwhelm the negating aspects.


    The hard water mineral deposits clog/corrode:
    Shower heads, valves, solenoid valves, antiscald devices, pumps, distribution pipes, etc.

    I can easily mitigate the anode rod "early wear" with an active powered anode rod (20 year warranty)

    Do you know anyone who nowadays drinks "tap water"??

    With softened water, we can use one quarter (1/4) of our expensive commercial laundry chemicals for the same wash load.

    Guests like the awesome feel from a softened water shower too!

  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 668
    RickDelta said:



    Do you know anyone who nowadays drinks "tap water"??

    Maybe not in your vicinity. The majority of the country drinks tap water.
    RickDelta
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,579
    Hi. I'll add that most people cook with tap water, so are ingesting it. About how much to soften water... leave 60-120 ppm total, of calcium and magnesium hardness in the water. Never soften it down to zero as many softener companies seem to like. This advice is from the National Association of Corrosion Engineers. If the softener cannot be adjusted, an old trick is to plumb in a bypass, so the hard water can mix with the softened water. This way, you set a valve in the bypass and remove the handle, so it isn't played with by your five year old! :p

    Yours, Larry
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 483
    Larry Weingarten said:

    Hi. I'll add that most people cook with tap water, so are ingesting it. About how much to soften water... leave 60-120 ppm total, of calcium and magnesium hardness in the water. Never soften it down to zero as many softener companies seem to like. This advice is from the National Association of Corrosion Engineers. If the softener cannot be adjusted, an old trick is to plumb in a bypass, so the hard water can mix with the softened water. This way, you set a valve in the bypass and remove the handle, so it isn't played with by your five year old! :p

    Yours, Larry



    Good stuff Lary! .... well said!

    The entire system is controlled by a PLC and displays historic graphic PH levels that I set profile limits to.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,270
    Phosphate dosers are fairly common on tankless heaters in Europe
    I not sure it is considered a water softener like an ion exchange device


    https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/media/external-file/01375_EN_3.pdf
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 483
    hot_rod said:

    Phosphate dosers are fairly common on tankless heaters in Europe
    I not sure it is considered a water softener like an ion exchange device


    https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/media/external-file/01375_EN_3.pdf

    @HotRod

    Interesting read ! Thanks!

    From what I'm reading, It seems Salt Brine regeneration (water softening) and Phosphate dosing (protective coating) together would be the best water treatment by combining the best of these paradigms have to offer in one system.

    ..... a "Phosphate/Salt Brine" water conditioner system.

  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 483
    edited February 14
    @HotRod

    As shown in my "Commercial Fast Regeneration Water Softener" pic above,
    I immediately emulsify a bag of "salt crystals" into a fully saturated (38%) salt brine solution. There I dose a 5% brine solution into the resin filter to back wash.

    My question is, could I also take the Phosphate "crystals" and fully liquify them into a fully saturated solution and pump dose them out at the required PH?

    ..... the reason to fully liquify the salt crystals and the phosphate crystals its to eliminate the common salt crystal "bridging" problems and to much more precisely control the brine PH levels.

    ..... with the salt brine removing lets say 80% of the harmful deposits to begin with, this would require a much smaller dosing of the additive phosphate crystal treatment as well.https://silksoftwater.com/product/sw603-water-conditioner-max/



    https://silksoftwater.com/product/sw603-water-conditioner-max/

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