No Heat

1Saltyone · January 22

Hi all, newbie home tinkerer. Have a problem with my weekend place. Went this week found heat at 70 with thermostat off. It’s an oil fired hot water system with 1 zone and baseboards. Not sure how it got past the flow check valve. Found the expansion tank completely full and the cooler has been working all week. Decided to upgrade everything I could since I bought the house 5 years ago and the only item with a date was the circulator pump(2014). New pump, expansion tank, vent valve flow check and zone valve relay (all replacements match previous taco models). The pump is on the return side with a drain behind it on the riser and a drain right before the boiler. There’s no drain on the supply side(shouldn’t there be?) so I’m very iffy on how to bleed it. So after changing everything, no leaks and filling. I can’t get the heat to come up. It’s not activating the flow check, even when I open it manually it doesn’t make it upstairs to first floor. I can hear the pump working but I can’t get it to work. Can it be blocked inside the boiler? Photos attached, any help is appreciated.

Mad Dog_2 · January 22

Hi you're probably air bound. You're ready for a proper repipe of that boiler.

1) Spirovent, Taco, or caleffi Air eliminator on supply.
2) Circulator on the supply. (out to the system) 3) Low Water Cut off
4) Clean up the relief valve discharge should be in boiler block. Then the discharge piped away and down with Copper ppiping.mad dog 🐕

HVACNUT · January 22

Hose connected here. Ball valve closed.

What's the pressure on the boiler? If you lift the lever on the feed valve, can you hear water entering the system? Was that replaced? The feed valve must feed new water to replace the air being purged.
Municipal or well water?

Who services the burner?

1Saltyone · January 22

Mad Dog_2 said:
Hi you're probably air bound. You're ready for a proper repipe of that boiler.

1) Spirovent, Taco, or caleffi Air eliminator on supply.
2) Circulator on the supply. (out to the system) 3) Low Water Cut off
4) Clean up the relief valve discharge should be in boiler block. Then the discharge piped away and down with Copper ppiping.mad dog 🐕

You're absolutely right, but we're in the process of planning out a major renovation to include an addition and converting electric baseboards in the basement to hydronic so this is a bit too much for me right now. I'm looking for making this work for a year is possible.

1Saltyone · January 22

HVACNUT said:
Hose connected here. Ball valve closed. What's the pressure on the boiler? If you lift the lever on the feed valve, can you hear water entering the system? Was that replaced? The feed valve must feed new water to replace the air being purged.
Municipal or well water?

Who services the burner?

Sorry again for the stupid comments, really am a newbie to this, I came from auto mechanics.
So if I open the feed and close the shutoff by the pump, it should fill the system and come out of the drain above the shutoff? It's filling, and the pressure goes up over 30 if I let it, but the water wasn't coming out of the return side. If I open the flow check, I can hear the supply side fill up, or if I open the shut-off right below the drain, all the water comes out(HOT).
The feed valve was not replaced (i probably will since I have to get this resolved). Municipal water, nobody recently servicing, I did a startup maintenance, cleanout, burner nozzle, etc. 2 years ago.

mattmia2 · January 22

Are there bl;eeders on the emitters? do you get anything out of those if you open them? Someone bled it when it was installed somehow. That could have been with valving at the oiler, it could have been with air vents at the emitters, or it could have been with a hose from a faucet or a pump cart.

1Saltyone · January 22

mattmia2 said:
Are there bl;eeders on the emitters? do you get anything out of those if you open them? Someone bled it when it was installed somehow. That could have been with valving at the oiler, it could have been with air vents at the emitters, or it could have been with a hose from a faucet or a pump cart.

Emitters = baseboards? Then no, only vent is the one in the supply line right above the boiler. I replaced that vent before and somehow bled it but it just doesn't want to work. Is there anything inside the boiler that would prevent the water from flowing from the feed line up through the pipes? Could it be a bad flow check? It's brand new Taco 218-3. I feel that the water is flowing backwards from the boiler back through the return side.
Shouldn't the feed when filling up, open the flow check and fill the baseboards all the way around and back down to the return?

EdTheHeaterMan · January 22

Based on the photos you posted, I am making a guess as to how your baseboard radiators may be connected.

It this is close to correct then here is the instructions for purging

1 Connect green hose here (see illustration below)

2 Close ball valve here. (see Illustration below)

3 Lift manual fill valve tab at A. (see Illustration below)

4 Watch gauge and open drain valve when pressure gets to 25 PSI on gauge

5 If pressure drops below 12 PSI then close drain valve and build up more pressure and repeat 4 and 5 until no air is released from hose (only water)

6 Close Manual feed valve tab A

7. Close drain valve when pressure is at 12 PSI.

8 Open Ball valve

The idea is to have enough pressure in the pipes to force the air at the top to follow the water down to the drain valve purge station. You may need to do steps 4 and 5, two or three times to get all the air out.

Caution: if the fill valve is manually open and the pressure goes above 30 PSI the relief valve will discharge. That is a good thing because you will know that the relief valve works as it should. If it does not discharge above 30 PSI, then DO NOT USE THE BOILER UNTIL YOU GET A WORKING RELIEF VALVE INSTALLED.

Also, if water spills pn the basement floor, Don't worry , It's only water.

1Saltyone · January 22

EdTheHeaterMan said:
Based on the photos you posted, I am making a guess as to how your baseboard radiators may be connected.

It this is close to correct then here is the instructions for purging

1 Connect green hose here (see illustration below)

2 Close ball valve here. (see Illustration below)

3 Lift manual fill valve tab at A. (see Illustration below)

4 Watch gauge and open drain valve when pressure gets to 25 PSI on gauge

5 If pressure drops below 12 PSI then close drain valve and build up more pressure and repeat 4 and 5 until no air is released from hose (only water)

6 Close Manual feed valve tab A

7. Close drain valve when pressure is at 12 PSI.

8 Open Ball valve

The idea is to have enough pressure in the pipes to force the air at the top to follow the water down to the drain valve purge station. You may need to do steps 4 and 5, two or three times to get all the air out.

Caution: if the fill valve is manually open and the pressure goes above 30 PSI the relief valve will discharge. That is a good thing because you will know that the relief valve works as it should. If it does not discharge above 30 PSI, then DO NOT USE THE BOILER UNTIL YOU GET A WORKING RELIEF VALVE INSTALLED.

Also, if water spills pn the basement floor, Don't worry , It's only water.

Ed, your visuals are AWESOME! Thanks for really spelling it out.
I can confirm that the fill valve works and so does the relief valve

I'm sure I did it this way but of course, I'm only there on the weekends and can't try it now. My only question: If I do this and the water doesn't make it out from the return drain what could be the causes for that because I don't think I was getting water even though the pressure was building enough for the relief valve to start leaking. Is there anything in the boiler that could cause a blockage and send it out from the return side?
I just remembered another item, very confused about. When I thought I bled it correctly, I had heat on both supply and return but NO heat upstairs. So the heat was coming up from the boiler through the return side, past the circulator. And the pump is the same exact model, and the arrow is pointing into the boiler.

EdTheHeaterMan · January 22

ICE

if you have ice blocking the pipes, then when it gets warm enough and the ice thaws, one of two things will happen

1. The system will go back to normal operation.
2. The ICE caused a pipe to burst and you will return to an insurance seminar. Title: How to file a water damage claim with homeowners adjuster.

1Saltyone · January 22

EdTheHeaterMan said:
ICE

if you have ice blocking the pipes, then when it gets warm enough and the ice thaws, one of two things will happen

1. The system will go back to normal operation.
2. The ICE caused a pipe to burst and you will return to an insurance seminar. Title: How to file a water damage claim with homeowners adjuster.

Oh boy. So when I head back this weekend, temps should be in the 40s. If I fill and the pressure builds with nothing coming out from the return, any other possibilities? I'd like to have a couple of things to tackle before I give up. I've spent so much time already, that I'd hate to call it quits now. Thanks so much for all your input already. It's been eye opening.

EdTheHeaterMan · January 22

Did you turn off the water from the main valve to the house?
Can yoi solder copper pipes?

Here is the illustration with 3 reasons that the water can not get through the baseboard loops. On the right, there is a supply pipe, There is a valve that may be closed. Look for that valve to see if you have one. I don't think you do.

On the left, there is a return pipe, There is a valve that may be closed. Look for that valve to see if you have one. I don't think you do.

If there are no valves that are closed on the pipes, then look at the top left radiator. It has ice in it. That will stop water from flowing through the pipe.

I can not know where the frozen pipe is located in your home but it is close to an outside wall near a vent in the crawlspace or somewhere close to the cold outside air that is poorly insulated.

I had an electrician apprentice customer with a frozen pipe, He took apart ever control wire on the boiler to find why the water was not circulating. He was sure he could fix it when he found the wire that was not letting the pump operate properly. When I got there I needed to put all the wires back and even rig one of the some pumps top operate off of a different thermostat because he broke the relay socket off of the control. After I was sure the electric was feeding the pump, if went to the back of the house where you access the crawlspace thru a little hatch. the hatch doopr was laying in the snow and the pipe right avobe the opening was frozen. with a heat gun I heated the pipe and the heat started to glow. he got luvcky because tha pipe did not burst. I caught it in time.

If you are a hammer everything looks like a nail... if you are an electrician...

1Saltyone · January 22

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Did you turn off the water from the main valve to the house? Can yoi solder copper pipes? Here is the illustration with 3 reasons that the water can not get through the baseboard loops. On the right, there is a supply pipe, There is a valve that may be closed. Look for that valve to see if you have one. I don't think you do. On the left, there is a return pipe, There is a valve that may be closed. Look for that valve to see if you have one. I don't think you do. If there are no valves that are closed on the pipes, then look at the top left radiator. It has ice in it. That will stop water from flowing through the pipe. I can not know where the frozen pipe is located in your home but it is close to an outside wall near a vent in the crawlspace or somewhere close to the cold outside air that is poorly insulated. I had an electrician apprentice customer with a frozen pipe, He took apart ever control wire on the boiler to find why the water was not circulating. He was sure he could fix it when he found the wire that was not letting the pump operate properly. When I got there I needed to put all the wires back and even rig one of the some pumps top operate off of a different thermostat because he broke the relay socket off of the control. After I was sure the electric was feeding the pump, if went to the back of the house where you access the crawlspace thru a little hatch. the hatch doopr was laying in the snow and the pipe right avobe the opening was frozen. with a heat gun I heated the pipe and the heat started to glow. he got luvcky because tha pipe did not burst. I caught it in time. If you are a hammer everything looks like a nail... if you are an electrician...

Got it! I just wanted to be clear that there’s nothing inside the boiler stopping the feed from reaching the supply side. I’ll be in above freezing conditions this weekend so I’ll give your great instructions a try.

Lastly, If you’re a mechanic, everything looks like a…?

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