Bad configuration?

cold_in_colorado

Hey there I just had this Combi boiler installed in my new construction and the space heating will not circulate. I believe the plumber does not have it connected correctly but he insists that I don’t know what I am talking about, which is true and that is why I am here. Any good points I can give him to help correct the issue? The Domestic side works great Thanks 

neilc

you need circs where the zone valves are,
nothing is forcing out to your zones,

hot_rod

assuming there is a pump inside the boiler circulating the boiler loop?

Two options.

#1 The distribution loop to the radiant needs to be taken off with closely spaced tees, and a circ added to the distribution loop. Remove the zone valve, add a circ P2.

#2 valve or cap off line to the zone valve, remove zone valve. Pump into one manifold. Return manifold goes into the loop, call it a horseshoe as it is not a connected loop.

So boiler injects into the horseshoe, the horseshoe pump circulates through the distribution.

A few piping changes that would not need an additional circulator. A piping correction without adding another circ.

Is the zone valve wired to a zone relay control? If the pump wired to the relay box? It possible to just jumper the end switch control the circulator from that relay

Hot_water_fan

If it’s not circulating, then he needs to fix it. Don’t do his work for him, you paid for his knowledge. He can read a manual just as well as we can. 

hot_rod

A different pic than the first one you posted?

The pipes going into the wall, where do they go?

neilc

hot_rod said:

A different pic than the first one you posted?

yeah,
what happened here?
post both pictures,
what happened there?

EBEBRATT-Ed

Supply pipe going through the wall I don't see a return from that.

hot_rod

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Supply pipe going through the wall I don't see a return from that.

I see another zone valve just to the left of the boiler, must be another zone behind the boiler?

cold_in_colorado

hot_rod said:

assuming there is a pump inside the boiler circulating the boiler loop? Two options. #1 The distribution loop to the radiant needs to be taken off with closely spaced tees, and a circ added to the distribution loop. Remove the zone valve, add a circ P2. #2 valve or cap off line to the zone valve, remove zone valve. Pump into one manifold. Return manifold goes into the loop, call it a horseshoe as it is not a connected loop. So boiler injects into the horseshoe, the horseshoe pump circulates through the distribution. A few piping changes that would not need an additional circulator. A piping correction without adding another circ. Is the zone valve wired to a zone relay control? If the pump wired to the relay box? It possible to just jumper the end switch control the circulator from that relay

neilc said:

you need circs where the zone valves are, nothing is forcing out to your zones,

neilc said:

you need circs where the zone valves are, nothing is forcing out to your zones,

neilc said:

you need circs where the zone valves are, nothing is forcing out to your zones,

neilc said:

you need circs where the zone valves are, nothing is forcing out to your zones,

cold_in_colorado

Yes and sorry about the two pictures. The first picture I posted was how it was originally installed and then on the second try my plumber moved a few things around and now it supplies heat only when both zones are calling. And I believe that the heat must circulate first through the upstairs zone ( pipe going into wall) first then through the floor zone before it gets back to the boiler. 

  Only had the first picture up for a few minutes so you guys caught that quickly. Thanks for all the insight. 

neilc

and this last picture* won't work either, if one zone shuts, so does the other,
needs a repipe,
do you have your manual ?

*the new one up top, not this one in the next message, which was the original wrong job,

cold_in_colorado

Here’s the first picture again but it’s been changed from this configuration. 

cold_in_colorado

The pipes going into the wall supply and return heat loops that are stapled up to subfloor for upstairs heating zone.

hot_rod

It needs a repipe, no way around it, which you already know. How to convince your installer is probably the bigger task.

Usually a staple up zone requires higher water temperature than a slab zone. It seems you may want a two temperature solution also. Boiler runs at the higher temperature, a mixing valve lowers supply to the slab.

Was a heatloss calculation performed, a system design?

You have good bones there, it is a salvageable system with the proper installer mindset.

Maybe send him an email with this link. A system very similar to yours is used as a before and after repipe, along with the explanation. This issue was written specifically for folks that are just missing a detail or two to get the best, proper piping


https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/media/external-file/Idronics_19_NA_Proven hydronic distribution systems.pdf

neilc

the Navien manual has some pretty good pictures in it also, it's not all text

hot_rod

This option
Boiler pumps into primary loop, you have that
Add two tees to primary loop. Staple up and pump on one set P1
Two tees at bottom with a 3 way thermostatic mix valve and pump P3

cold_in_colorado

Thank you so much for your time and attention helping me out here. It is as Bob says the hardest part is convincing the installer that he has done something wrong. It took some convincing to get them back for the first repipe and the first install was not heating at all. At least the boiler is not running 24/7 as it was. Not sure a  heat loss calculation was ever done, when I installed the staple up loops we used heat transfer plates, and the entire upper floor is ceramic tile on cement board so the floor should hold the heat well. It’s hot inside now.
 As for the manual I have read it extensively now but the plumbers must have missed the space heating part of it.I don’t think I can ever use the knowledge that I have found in there because I don’t mess with pipes or wires, I know my role and leave it to the licensed professionals.
 I did come up with a drawing that I created using the diagram in the manual but my installer said that it would not work.Not being a plumber I had to admit that I don’t know what I am talking about.Then he made me a diagram and said that it would work this way. I’m working with someone who is very good at sweating pipes but might be making some simple mistakes. They do the impeccable DWV and are really great otherwise Any books that I could suggest to his crew? How do you 
my diagram 
 Plumbers diagram 

cold_in_colorado

Is using a Tee for the hydronic separator as the installer did ok or do you need more spacing there?

hot_rod

Maybe break it down to 3 different circuits or zones. Here is what a "true primary secondary loop series loop could look like, the hand drawn chicken scratch.
Think of the primary loop as a conveyer belt, just moving the heat around and around.

To get heat (flow) off that loop you need a circulator tied into it. Every zone needs to be able to pull off the conveyer belt with a circulator AND at closely spaced tees. Two tees with a close nipple between them is best. This is a critical detail he may be missing?.

Any loop or circuit you tie into the primary loop is a secondary loop. It will only get flow if it has a properly sized circulator attached to it.

This piping method allows any or all the secondary loops to operate independently of one another.


I like the Horeshoe Fig 6-4 primary loop as it requires one less pump and eliminates temperature drop the you get with a series loop.

Perhaps this is what he is trying for? It seems he has a blend of the two piping options, which as you have experienced will not work as you desire.

An excellent guide to primary secondary piping below. Primary Secondary Made Easy.

Also free downloads from Caleffi Idronics.
Issue # 12 starts at the beginner level, #19 takes you through a few mis-piped examples and shows the correction options.

https://idronics.caleffi.com/magazine-archive

neilc

where do you see a hydronic separator?
any tee doesn't matter at this point,

your diagram, the original picture, there's nothing to force hot water past your zone valves, the circ on that primary loop is only chasing water around that primary loop,

plumber's diagram, the circ would push water out to the zones, but as you noted, both zones needed to be open to allow flow, your 2 zone home is now a single zone,

in the manual, piping diagrams, this is not a Primary like you have, it is a horseshoe, supply and return,
see the difference?

hot_rod

This piping option allow you to use the parts you have. A single distribution circulator with the two "Z" zone valves.

Shut-off and purge valves for the two different zones or circuits the X symbols