Help running new zone and adding to other

AnthVale

Trying to run a third zone in my house and also add a register to one of the existing zones.

The rooms I want the new zone in already have registers in them with copper pipes looping down and back about a 20 foot wall down the side of both rooms. Do I need to check these old copper pipes (they are existing and at one point we're in use)? Do they need a compression test of some kind?

For the zone I want to add to, I'm guessing the system needs to be drained? I'm new to all of this and I was hoping to do this myself but I'm not sure it's realistic.

Everything is currently run with PEX so I would be running PEX to the new register and going from PEX to copper.

Any help would be appreciated.

Best,

EBEBRATT-Ed

You will have to post some pictures. When you say 'registers" i don't know what you mean?

EdTheHeaterMan

The term register is commonly used for the louver cover at the end of a duct that blows heated or cooled air into a room.

Do you have baseboard radiators that look like this

So you will want to have a PEX tool to make the connections and you will want to purchase the PEX that has the oxygen barrier. Copper and steel pipe don't let oxygen into the system, but the wrong PEX (without the oxygen barrier) will destroy your system in 2 short years. Then you will be back here asking about how to get all that rusty mud out of your system.

The new zone will need its own pump or a zone valve in order to separate it from the other zones. How ai the current zones separated? A pump for each zone or a zone valve for each zone?

Grallert

For the zone with the existing "register" The new zone I would check that thoroughly for splits. Is there a reason it was abandoned? Was there a freeze at one point do you know. It would be a good idea to test with air pressure for any fault that's not visible.
Adding to an existing zone can be done with an O2 barrier pex.

AnthVale

EdTheHeaterMan said:

The term register is commonly used for the louver cover at the end of a duct that blows heated or cooled air into a room.

Do you have baseboard radiators that look like this

So you will want to have a PEX tool to make the connections and you will want to purchase the PEX that has the oxygen barrier. Copper and steel pipe don't let oxygen into the system, but the wrong PEX (without the oxygen barrier) will destroy your system in 2 short years. Then you will be back here asking about how to get all that rusty mud out of your system.

The new zone will need its own pump or a zone valve in order to separate it from the other zones. How ai the current zones separated? A pump for each zone or a zone valve for each zone?

Sorry for the confusion. I have a baseboard water heater like you have shown in that photo.

I believe there is a zone valve for each zone. See this image and correct me if I'm wrong:


Looks like both zones have this green valve inline.

This is also there which leads me to believe I can have the third zone:

Grallert said:

For the zone with the existing "register" The new zone I would check that thoroughly for splits. Is there a reason it was abandoned? Was there a freeze at one point do you know. It would be a good idea to test with air pressure for any fault that's not visible.
Adding to an existing zone can be done with an O2 barrier pex.

No idea. We bought the house and the guy told us the house had heat (he even cranked the heat to 85 to get the "back rooms" hot so we didn't notice. I moved in and settled in a bit and notice huh...the back rooms literally have no heat...

Honestly I'm up in NH and the room gets freezing so the current pipes could have froze or have something wrong with them I am not sure. They must have worked at one point because they loop and come back to one end and go down into my crawlspace.

My question is, how do I go about doing this air pressure test? with an air compressor?

Thank you both for the tips with the 02 safe PEX and everything else you've already helped me with. It's much appreciated.

Best,

EdTheHeaterMan

Great. Lets get some terms defined so we can talk the same language.
Baseboard Radiator is what you have for heating each room.
The Zone Valve opens and closes based on the room thermostat setting
the TACO ZVC403 is a zone valve control. It makes it easy to see what is working and what is not working by the yellow red and green lights.
The thing that makes the water hot on your system is called a BOILER
You do not have a furnace... that makes air hot and is connected to ductwork
You will need to know the pipe sizes that are connected to your boiler. a 3/4" copper pipe is what is connected to the zone valve. that can only move about 40,000 BTUs of heat per hour. If your home needs more that 40,000 BTU/h than the pipes from the boiler to the different zones will need to be liager than 3/4". like at least 1" of maybe 1-1/4" copper.

This textbook will help you understand how the heating boiler works in your home https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/108119-Reference Guide.pdf

So to get started, you can add a third zone to that control. And as long as there is less than say 45 feet of the aluminum fins on the zone you want to add some additional baseboards, then you can have as many as 65 to 70 feet of fins on a zone that is fed by a 3/4" pipe. If you put more that 70 feet of fins on one 4/5" loop in series, then the end of the zone will not get enough heat because the beginning will use all the heat so there is not enough at the end. That is why you have 2 zones now. Each of those 3/4" pipes can handle about 40,000 BTUh. So 2 zones can handle 80,000 BTUh total.

EdTheHeaterMan

Based on several assumptions that are standards of the heating industry, a Baseboard radiator like yours can provide about about 550 BTU to 675 BTU of heat per hour for ever foot of aluminum fins inside the enclosure. (some of the enclosure may have pipe only and does not count as heating element). This is an illustration form a class that I used to teach that shows how a series baseboard loop will work. The question that accompanied the illustration: If the pipe from the boiler to the baseboards was 1/2" how far might the heat travel before the water was too cold the heat the rest of the zone?
The answer would be about 1/2 way down the third 10 foot section. That is because a 1/2" pipe can handle about 15,000 BTU of heat per hour.
if your baseboard was able to emit 600 BTU/h then the first 20 feet would emit 12000 BTU, by the time the water reached the middle of the third 10 ft section there would be insufficient heat to be useful in the other sections past about 25 feet.

The next question is how far if the pipes were 3/4"? Then you get to about 67 feet.

So... you can do what you want to do, but there are design limitations that must be considered.

AnthVale

I can't thank you enough for everything you've already helped me with. Here's where I'm at.

So, we will be running 3/4" pipe and we only need to go about 30 ft from the boiler straight out to the corner of one room and then straight back looping it inside the same baseboard radiator.

I do have a couple more questions and want to reiterate that I'm a complete newbie with all of this.

Also, I'm aware that whoever put this system together over time most likely did it incorrectly so I don't need to hear from everybody that it's all messed up. I am aware because I brought in a technician who had already pointed them all out haha with that said here's the current situation in a diagram I put together:



What I believe needs to be done (for now, brand new home owner just want what's necessary for now)

1: Add zone off those two valves where it says "Add zone here".

2: Replace backflow preventer because it's corroded.

3: Replace or disassemble and clean the black iron above and below circulator pump due to a leak/corrosion 

4: Add one baseboard radiator to a current zone.

Question I have:

1: So, where I want to add the zones on the left hand side there are already valves separating the entire system from where I want to add the zone. With that, can I just run the zone out and back without draining the entire system?

2: Once I run the new zone do I need to flush the zone to remove any air that may have gotten into the system?

3: The zone I'm running already has existing baseboard radiators that have been in the cold for months now and who knows how long before I bought the house. I'm wondering what the procedure is here. I have heard people say that I might want to pressure test the actual pipes inside the baseboard radiator? Is this something I do with a compressor? Is it necessary?

4: It looks like I need to replace the backflow preventer because it's all corroded and I also need to replace or at least clean up and reassemble the black iron above and below the circulator pump. I was hoping to run the zone first and then revisit this in the spring so I don't need to drain the boiler just now. Does that seem like a good idea or should I just do all of this at once?


Tha is again for all your help as I navigate this.

Best,
Anthony 

dko

The supply valve where you want to add a zone looks to be a propress valve. Return valve is not clear enough to see. Not enough meat to cut it off and continue, especially since it deforms the pipe. You're going to need to unsweat the pipe from that reducer coupling and sweat a longer piece of pipe or street adapter. if not you'll need to get/borrow a copper propress machine.

hot_rod

it looks like both valves are threaded on the boiler side you could replace  them with fip x sweat valves to connect the additional zone. 3/4” should be adequate for 30, 000 btu/ hr

dko

I thought so too at first


Could barely make out that ring on boiler side.
Could be wrong, photo distortion

hot_rod

tough to see? Looks like a make adapter screwed into the press valve?
If not just go back to the next fitting
It will require a drain down either way to add or change the valves

Many plumbing wholesalers will rent or loan a press tool to use the valve you have

AnthVale

Thank you everybody. Here's a closer view:



Seems like the blue valve is threaded on and the red one is press fit.

So, is the general consensus that I'll most likely need to drain the sytem unless I can find a press tool for that top red valve?

Anyone have any feedback on questions 2 and 3?

Thanks again

hot_rod

If it were me, I’d replace the blue valve and nipple it is connected to with a Webstone purge valve. You need a purge valve somewhere.
Buy or borrow a press tool for the conversion to sweat, or just use all press fittings.

Buy this manual press tool for 100 bucks, sell it on Craigslist when you are done. Probably cheaper than hiring a plumber.

A pro may be tempted to replace that blue valve by lowering the boiler pressure, and not a complete drain down😗 AKA a flying connection

AnthVale

Waking this thread up as I'm finally approaching the day I will attack this project.

@hot_rod Out of curiosity (so I understand correctly), when you mention the purge valve, is that accomplishing the same thing as these two valves on the other two zones in this photo?

I think I want to sweat the entire new zone so I'm Debating unsweating the red valve and re-sweating on a new sweat/sweat valve. Is that worth my time or should I purchase the $100 manual propress tool and just go from press to sweat for that valve only?

I need to work on other parts of the system that will require me to drain the entire system. With that said, is that as simple as turning off feed water, turning off power to boiler, and hooking a hose to the drain at bottom of boiler?

It's funny there are not many videos (or they are hard to find/don't explain too well).

Once I connect all the pipes and get the zone hooked up, whats the best practice for testing that everything is leak free and/or whats the next step after that? Just turn the feed water on? Or, purge air? or? Do you purge one zone at a time or entire system?

Thanks in advance,

hot_rod

Depending on how much repiping you want to do. A single 1" purge ball valve like shown and you could eliminate the individual purge valves, leave the ball valves in place to isolate the various loops for purging.

Or just use a 3/4 Webstone where you add the new zone. The cost of these makes it a no brainer instead of a multi valve multi fitting assembly.

Yes just refill to leak test. Doing an air test first complicates the procedure. If you have a leak it will be right in front of you.

Webstone has sweat, thread and press options.

you go the press route, sand the pipe, remove the burr, it is very rare to have a leak.

Assuming you press all the fittings :)

Screenshot 2024-08-18 at 10.01.32 AM.png

AnthVale

Thanks! So far, so good. I ended up going with a ball valve/drain valve combo vs the Webstone shown above. I can't remember exactly why, but I think I'm just really cheap and already had that 3/4 valve (under the green gate valve).

I ended up sweating everything (first time soldering copper, it's actually sort of fun once you understand the science).

I ran the loop down to the back rooms of my house and then returned back to the mechanical room. I purchased a SWT x SWT TACO Zone entry valve like these green ones and soldered it onto the feed line here. This is an unfinished photo, the new zone valve is on that top pipe directly behind this green valve.

Gonna be getting water into the system tonight to test for leaks. Although I learned quickly soldering with water in the lines is impossible…(and yes, I've learned multiple old-timer tricks to get around this!)

Thanks for everyones help again!