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Is my heating curve good enough?
pieIX
Member Posts: 12
Here is the description of the heating system.
It is a 1953 building with 4 floors (31 feet up to the top of the last radiator) including the basement with original insulation and thermos windows. There are 6 apartments of 1000 sq. ft. with 8 radiators, two 3 ½ in the basement and a common area. The building is in Montreal (9F outdoor design).
There are two Buderus condensing boilers one of 160,000 BTU (GB142/45) and one of 200,000 BTU (GB142/60). The 45 is for heating and 60 is for hot water. There are two pumps for each boiler (heating and DHW). The 60 can help the 45 if there is a lack of power (i.e system startup). The LOAD parameter for boiler 45 has been reduced to 70 in order to have a minimum cycle of 8 minutes. There is no "Load balancing" between the two boilers.
The DHW sensors are connected directly to the two boilers and only boiler 60 is used for the DHW during the heating period. According to statistics, the heating of hot water does not influence the heating of the building.
The system is cold started at a pressure of 17 PSI@60F (regulator and 13.2 gallons expansion tank 2 x 6.6 gallons). The pressure can rise to 26 PSI on the gauge at the side of the regulator for an outside temperature of –10F. But the pressure display by the boilers is 2930 PSI (safety valves at 30psi!!). The maximum boiler supply is at 160F not to bust the safety valves and the boiler design is at 127F (heating curve 0.8). The delta T of the primary loop and secondary is 20F.
In several apartments (4/8) there are thermometers to calibrate the system and record statistics and they do not control the boilers.
Here are the parameters of the Tekmar 261 (outdoor reset):
OCC = 64F (but it is 68F inside)
UNOCC = 62F
OUTDOOR DESIGN = 10F
TYPE OF TERMINAL = 5 (radiator)
TARGET SET POINT = OFF
DESIGN INDOOR = 70F
DESIGN SUPPLY = 127F
MAXIMUM BOILER SUPPLY = 135F
MINIMUM BOILER SUPPLY = 81F
TIME DELAY = 0:05
DIFFERENTIAL = AUTO
OCC SYSTEM WORM WEATHER SHUT DOWN = 68F
UNOCC SYSTEM WORM WEATHER SHUT DOWN = 68F
The problem is that there is an apartment on the 4th floor with the same size and the same number of radiators (8) which is hotter by 44.6F than the other identical apartment (66F). There are “auto bleeder” on the radiators. So not a bleeding problem. This difference prohibits increasing the temperature of the system (not to cook the tenants of the the 4th floor). There is also another apartment this one in the basement which is also at 78.8F. Its number of radiator is different as well as its size.
The “supply” splits in two at the beginning of the piping circuit. My guess is that the two apartments are at the beginning of these loops and that's why the temperature difference is so big.
Is it your diagnostic? And is the heating curve good enough for this type of building?
That’s it. Thanks for your help.
It is a 1953 building with 4 floors (31 feet up to the top of the last radiator) including the basement with original insulation and thermos windows. There are 6 apartments of 1000 sq. ft. with 8 radiators, two 3 ½ in the basement and a common area. The building is in Montreal (9F outdoor design).
There are two Buderus condensing boilers one of 160,000 BTU (GB142/45) and one of 200,000 BTU (GB142/60). The 45 is for heating and 60 is for hot water. There are two pumps for each boiler (heating and DHW). The 60 can help the 45 if there is a lack of power (i.e system startup). The LOAD parameter for boiler 45 has been reduced to 70 in order to have a minimum cycle of 8 minutes. There is no "Load balancing" between the two boilers.
The DHW sensors are connected directly to the two boilers and only boiler 60 is used for the DHW during the heating period. According to statistics, the heating of hot water does not influence the heating of the building.
The system is cold started at a pressure of 17 PSI@60F (regulator and 13.2 gallons expansion tank 2 x 6.6 gallons). The pressure can rise to 26 PSI on the gauge at the side of the regulator for an outside temperature of –10F. But the pressure display by the boilers is 2930 PSI (safety valves at 30psi!!). The maximum boiler supply is at 160F not to bust the safety valves and the boiler design is at 127F (heating curve 0.8). The delta T of the primary loop and secondary is 20F.
In several apartments (4/8) there are thermometers to calibrate the system and record statistics and they do not control the boilers.
Here are the parameters of the Tekmar 261 (outdoor reset):
OCC = 64F (but it is 68F inside)
UNOCC = 62F
OUTDOOR DESIGN = 10F
TYPE OF TERMINAL = 5 (radiator)
TARGET SET POINT = OFF
DESIGN INDOOR = 70F
DESIGN SUPPLY = 127F
MAXIMUM BOILER SUPPLY = 135F
MINIMUM BOILER SUPPLY = 81F
TIME DELAY = 0:05
DIFFERENTIAL = AUTO
OCC SYSTEM WORM WEATHER SHUT DOWN = 68F
UNOCC SYSTEM WORM WEATHER SHUT DOWN = 68F
The problem is that there is an apartment on the 4th floor with the same size and the same number of radiators (8) which is hotter by 44.6F than the other identical apartment (66F). There are “auto bleeder” on the radiators. So not a bleeding problem. This difference prohibits increasing the temperature of the system (not to cook the tenants of the the 4th floor). There is also another apartment this one in the basement which is also at 78.8F. Its number of radiator is different as well as its size.
The “supply” splits in two at the beginning of the piping circuit. My guess is that the two apartments are at the beginning of these loops and that's why the temperature difference is so big.
Is it your diagnostic? And is the heating curve good enough for this type of building?
That’s it. Thanks for your help.
0
Comments

Systems like that need to have some balancing function for the individual rooms or radiators. Are there valves you can adjust?
You will need a couple design days to
know if the design supply temperature is high enough
You could add an additional expansion tank and check the precharge in the one you have
use the sizing calculator at the Amtrol website to get an idea if how much tank you needBob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 
What type of radiation?—
Bburd0 
The expansion tanks (2x) are at 17psi like the regulator.
This is my radiator without the cover. 8 of them in every apartment (1000 sq. ft.)
And this is the Caleffi auto bleeder which I added on the radiator.
And this is the valve of the radiator. The valve doesn't turn either way. It is always OPEN.
0 
This is a live picture of the boiler pressure gauge. You have the outside temperature and the temperature of the primary loop (the loop of the building).
0 
And this is the average of the temperature in the apartments of all the building. Including the outside temperature and the temperature of the primary loop (the loop of the building) for 7 days. Even with that I cannot correctly calibrate the curve of the building...
0
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