2 Pressuretrol Cut-Ins and 1 Cut Out?

holograham

Hi - my boiler has two cut-ins and 1 cut-out for my steam boiler. Cant seem to find an explanation online for this.

Also it's a large house (not enormous but 3 floors) but both cut-ins set high from what I have been reading. Cut in at 2 PSI and cut out at 3.63 PSI (25 kpa). The boiler is oversized by about 45% FWIW (have measured all radiator EDR sizes).

mattmia2

Is it a dual stage burner? The pressuretrol on the right is a high limit manual reset pressuretrol, if its cut out pressure is reached it shuts down the boiler until you press the red button. It should be set a fair bit above the cutout pressure of the other 2.

The 2 pressuretrols on the left don't seem to be protected from being damaged by steam and hot water from the boiler by a water seal unless i'm missing something in how that tee is piped to the boiler.

holograham

How would I know if it's a dual stage burner?

The model is in the picture - Weil-McLain 80 (580 specifically).

Are you referencing the lack of pig-tail on the 2 cut-ins? I am not sure - not a steam guy.

JUGHNE

Another picture needed, just back up and show floor to ceiling please.

holograham

Here’s full view

JUGHNE

You might have a 2 stage gas burner set up there. Someone else here will know better.

Edit (Actually those look like redundant valves in series)

Your controls have a water trap below them but the pressure gauge does not.

holograham

Where is the water trap? What does this mean for my system? 

reggi

What is the spare boiler for ?

holograham

reggi said:

What is the spare boiler for ?

The previous owners did a remodel and added radiant water heating in the back part first floor. That is why the current boiler is oversized (took out probably 2-3 large radiators).

Jamie Hall

As far as control strategy goes, not that uncommon a setup on larger burners. All three pressure controls should be wired in series, so that if any one of them trips the burner shuts down. The lowest pressure one should b the operating control, and should be set out to cutin at around 0.75 psi -- no higher. Doesn't matter -- or shouldn't -- which of the two grey boxes that would be. The other grey box can be set for a cutin of 2 psi, and is there if, for some reason the control pressuretrol doesn't do its thing it will keep the system operating, although at too high a pressure for a long time. The one with the clear cover is the ultimate safety pressure control, and should be set for a cutout of about 5 psi. It is there so that if the other two somehow don't function the system will shut down and stay shut down until someone comes to reset it -- and hopefully find out why the regular ones failed to control. 5 psi is low enough to prevent real damage to the vents and traps.

And the folks are right -- you have no pigtail or water trap on either of the grey pressuretrols, and you should. The problem is... you may not have enough height to install one without having them be in front of the rest of the electrical boxes, and that's not good. Not sure how to fix that. For the moment, don't worry about it.

reggi

The water trap keeps steam from getting into the controls/gauges workings as they usually aren't rated for direct steam, maybe 140° so between the water and the instrument a air cushion protects the instrument while applying applicable pressure for functions or/and display 

ScottSecor

Looks like an on off burner to me with the fixed air shutters.  Might consider adding 1" cross tees to the lwco/feeder in the future (to replace the elbows that tend to clog).

mattmia2

For what its worth the header is also piped wrong.

mattmia2

But i don't know much about that burner other than it is a huge gas power burner and you should be having someone that understands it servicing it.

reggi

Well there's a lot of writing on the service tag so someone must be familiar with your system,  how long have you been in the house and how has the system been running ? Last time it was serviced ? It's great to learn about your system but you want to make sure it's good for the season in the meantime.. 

holograham

Jamie Hall said:

As far as control strategy goes, not that uncommon a setup on larger burners. All three pressure controls should be wired in series, so that if any one of them trips the burner shuts down. The lowest pressure one should b the operating control, and should be set out to cutin at around 0.75 psi -- no higher. Doesn't matter -- or shouldn't -- which of the two grey boxes that would be. The other grey box can be set for a cutin of 2 psi, and is there if, for some reason the control pressuretrol doesn't do its thing it will keep the system operating, although at too high a pressure for a long time. The one with the clear cover is the ultimate safety pressure control, and should be set for a cutout of about 5 psi. It is there so that if the other two somehow don't function the system will shut down and stay shut down until someone comes to reset it -- and hopefully find out why the regular ones failed to control. 5 psi is low enough to prevent real damage to the vents and traps.

And the folks are right -- you have no pigtail or water trap on either of the grey pressuretrols, and you should. The problem is... you may not have enough height to install one without having them be in front of the rest of the electrical boxes, and that's not good. Not sure how to fix that. For the moment, don't worry about it.

So both cut-ins are set to the same at 2 PSI - is that bad?

The lines only go 0.5 then 2 - so I have to eyeball somewhere in between to get 0.75 approx?

I dont quite understand how the cutoff works. I have seen close to 5 PSI on the gauge before. Since it's current set at 3.6 - can pressure build up for a few minutes after the burner shuts off which takes it higher? Then its coming back on when pressure drops back to 2?

holograham

reggi said:

The water trap keeps steam from getting into the controls/gauges workings as they usually aren't rated for direct steam, maybe 140° so between the water and the instrument a air cushion protects the instrument while applying applicable pressure for functions or/and display 

Are you referring to the box right below the cutoffs? It's labeled a low water cutoff box and I was shown by my plumber how to reset it if it goes off (after filling the boiler of course).

holograham

mattmia2 said:

For what its worth the header is also piped wrong.

Yes aware - had a steam guy referred from Heating Help out to review my piping and main venting (there was none). Just finished the work to repipe some areas and add main venting. Debating what to do next.

holograham

mattmia2 said:

But i don't know much about that burner other than it is a huge gas power burner and you should be having someone that understands it servicing it.

Brought someone out from this forum - doing just that.

holograham

reggi said:

Well there's a lot of writing on the service tag so someone must be familiar with your system,  how long have you been in the house and how has the system been running ? Last time it was serviced ? It's great to learn about your system but you want to make sure it's good for the season in the meantime.. 

Yep - brought someone out from this forum. Trying to learn as much as I can too to take some burden off all the questions I am peppering him with.

reggi

holograham said:

The water trap keeps steam from getting into the controls/gauges workings as they usually aren't rated for direct steam, maybe 140° so between the water and the instrument a air cushion protects the instrument while applying applicable pressure for functions or/and display 

Are you referring to the box right below the cutoffs? It's labeled a low water cutoff box and I was shown by my plumber how to reset it if it goes off (after filling the boiler of course).

The water comes from the boiler above this pipe arrangement and prevents steam from entering..the steam will exert the same amount of pressure against the water which will compress the air above it and give readings on / to the instruments without getting damaged by the heat of the steam..

reggi

I wouldn't bet the house on the accuracy of the gauge  , where it's located as of now it's not protected from steam BUT the length of pipe appears that it long enough, and wide enough, to hold enough air that when the boiler is running it still would be able to compress the air and give a reading without being compromised with live steam... having a accurate gauge to check your present one isn't that expensive...
AND speaking of your gauge...does your system fall into vacuum? If so how deep and how long? Just curious 

holograham

reggi said:

I wouldn't bet the house on the accuracy of the gauge  , where it's located as of now it's not protected from steam BUT the length of pipe appears that it long enough, and wide enough, to hold enough air that when the boiler is running it still would be able to compress the air and give a reading without being compromised with live steam... having a accurate gauge to check your present one isn't that expensive...
AND speaking of your gauge...does your system fall into vacuum? If so how deep and how long? Just curious 

So you’re suggesting to replace the gauge? Or test the pressure some other way (if so how?)

I haven’t noticed it read a vacuum but I don’t monitor it all the time. Suggestion of a time or sequence of events to look at it?

Jamie Hall

On setting the pressuretrols. Yes, pick one of them -- as I say, it doesn't matter which, if they are wired correctly -- and set it's cutin pressure a bit above the 0.5 mark. Leave the differential alone (it's inside). Leave the other one set with a cutin of 2, and the manual reset at a cutout of 5 or so.

As others have said, that pressure gauge you have is required, yes -- but it's unlikely to be particularly accurate at the low pressures you want to be running at. You could mount a low pressure gauge on the same pigtail as it's on, using a T, a couple of elbows, and a couple of nipples.

reggi

Well right now I suggest letting the Steam Pro continue whatever course of action decided as if there was a Safety Issue or something else of immediate concern I'm sure that would be addressed or prioritized to your satisfaction...
There's no better learning than establishling a relationship with your Pro and remembering that this is everyone's busy time.. emergencies, no heat, malfunctioning equipment,... If you don't already own them, Dan Holohan ( He and his wife started this place) wrote some, if not the best, most understandable books on Steam and Steam Systems that millions of people have benefited from.. and just not the readers.
 TheLostArtofSteamHeating. 
https://heatinghelp.com/store/

holograham

reggi said:

Well right now I suggest letting the Steam Pro continue whatever course of action decided as if there was a Safety Issue or something else of immediate concern I'm sure that would be addressed or prioritized to your satisfaction...
There's no better learning than establishling a relationship with your Pro and remembering that this is everyone's busy time.. emergencies, no heat, malfunctioning equipment,... If you don't already own them, Dan Holohan ( He and his wife started this place) wrote some, if not the best, most understandable books on Steam and Steam Systems that millions of people have benefited from.. and just not the readers.
 TheLostArtofSteamHeating. 
https://heatinghelp.com/store/

Thanks - yes have read all the books. Just have no practice. And have a pretty large system that I’m starting on. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

Some pressure gauges have an "internal syphon" and don't need a pigtail.

The Burner is a Power Flame Model J gas burner. That burner can be sold as a fixed fire burner or as a modulating fire or a low high fire burner depending on what controls are furnished with it.

As @ScottSecor pointed out the air shutters are locked in a fixed position and there is no modulation or low-high fire damper motor. If it was lo-high fire it would have a Honeywell two position gas valve with linkage to the air dampers and I don't see any modulating motor.

As far as the pressure controls go:

They don't need pigtails the tee drops down to make a water seal. But (and I could be wrong) I think ASME wants 3/4" pipe for the manifold if it is black pipe.

The second PA404A control may be required by code.

Boilers are required to have an operating control and a high limit control and a Manual reset control on larger sizes (commercial size boiler which this is although installed in a residence) determined by BTU input or code.

In most house jobs the thermostat is the operating control and you have 1 pressure control as a high limit. If the job requires the boiler to maintain steam pressure you would have 2 non reset pressure controls. The
manual reset is determined by BTU input or code and varies from state to state.

holograham

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Some pressure gauges have an "internal syphon" and don't need a pigtail. The Burner is a Power Flame Model J gas burner. That burner can be sold as a fixed fire burner or as a modulating fire or a low high fire burner depending on what controls are furnished with it. As @ScottSecor pointed out the air shutters are locked in a fixed position and there is no modulation or low-high fire damper motor. If it was lo-high fire it would have a Honeywell two position gas valve with linkage to the air dampers and I don't see any modulating motor. As far as the pressure controls go: They don't need pigtails the tee drops down to make a water seal. But (and I could be wrong) I think ASME wants 3/4" pipe for the manifold if it is black pipe. The second PA404A control may be required by code. Boilers are required to have an operating control and a high limit control and a Manual reset control on larger sizes (commercial size boiler which this is although installed in a residence) determined by BTU input or code. In most house jobs the thermostat is the operating control and you have 1 pressure control as a high limit. If the job requires the boiler to maintain steam pressure you would have 2 non reset pressure controls. The manual reset is determined by BTU input or code and varies from state to state.

Thank you. Not sure how to decipher this. Should I look into the modulator?

ScottSecor

A modulating burner would be wonderful. Unfortunately, your burner cannot really be retrofitted to modulate. In simple terms, Powerflame produces three type of gas power burner that would likely fit your boiler. On/off is what you have, low/high/low is the next step up and fully modulating is the top of the line version.

The advantage of low/high/low firing is there is a small flame at start, high fire until roughly 1psi steam pressure, and back to low fire until the call for heat is satisfied or the pressure goes above say 2psi. With modulating burners, the flame (in theory) stays on even longer and you get more even heating and less short cycling. Ideally, a modulating burner would allow the boiler water to "simmer" all day like the coal boilers did a hundred years ago. With modulating burners you need a special pressure control that sends a variable (modulating) signal to the burner. We don't talk specifics about pricing, but I would guess a special order modulating burner with controls would cost you more than double the cost of the existing burner.

holograham

ScottSecor said:

A modulating burner would be wonderful. Unfortunately, your burner cannot really be retrofitted to modulate. In simple terms, Powerflame produces three type of gas power burner that would likely fit your boiler. On/off is what you have, low/high/low is the next step up and fully modulating is the top of the line version.

The advantage of low/high/low firing is there is a small flame at start, high fire until roughly 1psi steam pressure, and back to low fire until the call for heat is satisfied or the pressure goes above say 2psi. With modulating burners, the flame (in theory) stays on even longer and you get more even heating and less short cycling. Ideally, a modulating burner would allow the boiler water to "simmer" all day like the coal boilers did a hundred years ago. With modulating burners you need a special pressure control that sends a variable (modulating) signal to the burner. We don't talk specifics about pricing, but I would guess a special order modulating burner with controls would cost you more than double the cost of the existing burner.

Thanks! Bummer I cannot retrofit. Going to try to turn down the pressuretrol today and see how that helps.

holograham

ScottSecor said:

A modulating burner would be wonderful. Unfortunately, your burner cannot really be retrofitted to modulate. In simple terms, Powerflame produces three type of gas power burner that would likely fit your boiler. On/off is what you have, low/high/low is the next step up and fully modulating is the top of the line version.

The advantage of low/high/low firing is there is a small flame at start, high fire until roughly 1psi steam pressure, and back to low fire until the call for heat is satisfied or the pressure goes above say 2psi. With modulating burners, the flame (in theory) stays on even longer and you get more even heating and less short cycling. Ideally, a modulating burner would allow the boiler water to "simmer" all day like the coal boilers did a hundred years ago. With modulating burners you need a special pressure control that sends a variable (modulating) signal to the burner. We don't talk specifics about pricing, but I would guess a special order modulating burner with controls would cost you more than double the cost of the existing burner.

Which one is the high end version? I am on their site but cannot figure it out. They have like 8 different models.

ScottSecor

JRA-HTD if money was no object, plus added controls, wiring, etc. Last time we ordered one it took approximately five months to get it.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://powerflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/JAHTD-Bulletin.pdf

holograham

ScottSecor said:

JRA-HTD if money was no object, plus added controls, wiring, etc. Last time we ordered one it took approximately five months to get it.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://powerflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/JAHTD-Bulletin.pdf

Thanks - though how come I cannot find that model on their website? https://powerflame.com/commercial-industrial/

ScottSecor

Check your PM

EBEBRATT-Ed

@holograham

You could probably convert that burner to LO-High fire. It's still going to cost a few bucks. You replace one of the gas valves with a two position Honeywell gas valve and hook the gas valve linkage to the air dampers.

There is a little more to it and the installer has to be competent with that burner. This would be cheaper that full modulation which in my opinion is a little overkill for a burner that size.

I was a Power Flame rep for 10 years now retired.

holograham

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@holograham

You could probably convert that burner to LO-High fire. It's still going to cost a few bucks. You replace one of the gas valves with a two position Honeywell gas valve and hook the gas valve linkage to the air dampers.

There is a little more to it and the installer has to be competent with that burner. This would be cheaper that full modulation which in my opinion is a little overkill for a burner that size.

I was a Power Flame rep for 10 years now retired.

Thanks - will ask my current steam guy. otherwise know anyone competent in northern NJ region for a job like that?

EBEBRATT-Ed

I would find out from PF who the rep is in that area and the rep could give you some names.

I think I still have their phone #memorized 1-316-421-0480 I had to go back 37 years for that so I would look on there web site.

holograham

Jamie Hall said:

On setting the pressuretrols. Yes, pick one of them -- as I say, it doesn't matter which, if they are wired correctly -- and set it's cutin pressure a bit above the 0.5 mark. Leave the differential alone (it's inside). Leave the other one set with a cutin of 2, and the manual reset at a cutout of 5 or so.

As others have said, that pressure gauge you have is required, yes -- but it's unlikely to be particularly accurate at the low pressures you want to be running at. You could mount a low pressure gauge on the same pigtail as it's on, using a T, a couple of elbows, and a couple of nipples.

So I changed one of the cut-ins to 0.75 (or as close to right above 0.5 as I can tell). Nothing appears to have changed in the operation. I left the other one as a cutin of 2 and the other one I have left as is. Should I move that one up? I get a reading of nearly 5PSI at peak operation off that large pressure guage before it shuts off. Then it appears to cycle back on at 3 PSI.

Timeline from a cold start:

7 mins - steam generation
10 mins - steam throughout basement mains (these are well vented)
20 min - Third floor furthest radiator - fully hot
35 mins - pressure cut-off at ~5 PSI (reading on gauge)
37 mins - boiler cycles back on at just below 2 PSI (reading on large gauge)

Jamie Hall

Step one here is going to be to get a good low pressure gauge... that big old gauge may be required (it is) but it's not reliable at these ranges.

holograham

Jamie Hall said:

Step one here is going to be to get a good low pressure gauge... that big old gauge may be required (it is) but it's not reliable at these ranges.

Thanks - will do

109A_5

Hello @holograham,
You could take then off and test and/or calibrate them. My lungs are still good enough to quick check the operation if set for 0.5 ish Cut-in and a Differential of 1.

Testing the Accuracy of Honeywell Pressuretrol
https://youtu.be/mE1-QuUx4_c