Unbalanced heat in 4 unit with 1 thermostat.

SteamingatMohawk

I looked at that valve, but it doesn't appear to attach to the radiator where the 1/8 NPT vents do on the side of the radiator. Look at the fittings in the pics and they look like grey plastic.

Thanks.

jesmed1

SteamingatMohawk said:

@jesmed1 There are 3 windows in the front and one radiator below the larger center window, not 3 radiators.

Sorry, I misread. Still, with one radiator in a smallish room, there's no reason why you shouldn't have decent response times. We have one radiator in our smallish dining room with the thermostat on the opposite wall, and our basic Lux TX100 thermostat does an excellent job of maintaining 68 +/- 1 degrees with minimal overshoot.

jesmed1

SteamingatMohawk said:

I looked at that valve, but it doesn't appear to attach to the radiator where the 1/8 NPT vents do on the side of the radiator. Look at the fittings in the pics and they look like grey plastic.

Thanks.

You may want to try manual TRV's anyway as that eliminates the battery issues. That might also make your tenants happier as they can then adjust the one or two TRV's in their unit to give them a bit of control. Meanwhile your multi-sensor thermostat (if you choose to get one) is averaging readings from all the units and trying to maintain that average, so no one unit throws the whole system out of whack.

SteamingatMohawk

The problem of the room with the thermostat having a consistently higher temperature and therefore no heat demand makes having a TRV on the cold radiators not able to heat the radiator.

I have to get the rooms to the same temperature as I mentioned above.

Then, I will have my fingers crossed hoping the tenant doesn't overheat his apartment again.

Right now, because of tenant issues, I am trying to find a remote way to isolate the radiator in the room with the thermostat, so I don't have to go into the apartment. Besides, I have no confidence the problem won't happen again and if I can find a remote way, I can isolate that radiator whenever necessary.

BTW, overnight the temperature in that room only went down about 4 degrees, it's still at 72.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not ignoring your suggestions and I appreciate your comments.

jesmed1

SteamingatMohawk said:

The problem of the room with the thermostat having a consistently higher temperature and therefore no heat demand makes having a TRV on the cold radiators not able to heat the radiator.

I'm still confused about your basic problem. In your initial post you said the tenant with the thermostat was opening windows and had a fan blowing out the window, both of which would imply the tenant was keeping his unit too cold by letting heat out/cold air in, and presumably causing the boiler to run too long, overheating the other units. Which you partially corrected by instructing him to close his windows, which now presumably keeps his unit warmer. Right?

Then later in this thread you said the tenant is overheating his unit. Which implies the opposite problem, ie the thermostat won't call for heat and now other units are getting cold. So how is the tenant now "overheating" his unit? Is he cooking too much? Does he have a hidden electric heater he's not telling you about? Does he have a pound of radioactive material under his bed that's decaying and giving off heat?

There are only three ways his unit is getting overheated. (1) There's too much heat coming from the radiator in the living room when the boiler does run, in which case a TRV on that rad *would* help, because it would reduce the heat output of that radiator during the boiler run, causing the boiler to run longer and deliver more heat to the other (cold) units. Or, (2) the thermostat you have is ill-suited for your setup and is failing to calculate the boiler run times correctly (either because of design or because it's got an internal problem), resulting in overshoot. If it were me, I'd be trying a different thermostat with different swing/CPH settings. Or, (3) There's some other heat source in the unit that you haven't found.

SteamingatMohawk said:

Then, I will have my fingers crossed hoping the tenant doesn't overheat his apartment again.

See above. How is he overheating his apartment???

SteamingatMohawk said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not ignoring your suggestions and I appreciate your comments.

No worries. Better that you're off the Internet and trying to solve the problem!

SteamingatMohawk

Cooking was a problem with the previous tenant, but we solved it by relocating the thermostat to a piece of furniture further from the stove, but not too close to the radiator or bathroom. I have to find a new location because the furniture arrangement is different. I have ordered a Govee 6 pack of remote sensors that I can locate around the room to establish a better location. The delivery was supposed to be on Thursday, still not here.

So, there are two problems, first was when he ran the heat with fans on, keeping the tstat from being satisfied and overheating the other units.

Second, after that escapade, with the tstat in its original location, the stove was affecting the tstat causing it to not heat the other apartments. Now we have two different temperature profiles, one for the tstat room and one for the first floor rooms. In this case the low and high temps are different with the tstat room higher than the first floor rooms by at least 5 degrees. When the first floor goes below 68, like 65, I turn on the heat from my phone and run it long enough to see a temperature difference, then shut it off. With no zoning, both profiles rise, keeping the difference in profiles pretty much the same.

When the latent heat is dissipated into the house it begins to cool down, but at similar rates, again keeping the profile difference the same.

So, I have to do one or the other things I mentioned above. With the mild weather, I expect it to take less time to heat up the first floor without heat going to the tstat room than trying to force cool down of the tstat room.

All I need is access to the tstat room to shut the radiator supply valve or block the vent, temporarily.

I hope this makes sense.

By the way, this is from the Macon Controls cut sheet for their TRV:

"If the boiler is cycled from a space thermostat in one zone, do not apply a radiator valve to that zone’s radiation."

file:///C:/Users/Al/Downloads/Bulletin-MC-OPSK%20wEVO-28-1705.pdf

jesmed1

SteamingatMohawk said:

So, there are two problems, first was when he ran the heat with fans on, keeping the tstat from being satisfied and overheating the other units.

Second, after that escapade, with the tstat in its original location, the stove was affecting the tstat causing it to not heat the other apartments.

That answers the question of how the tenant was first messing the system up (blowing hot air out the window and letting cold air in), but it still doesn't answer the question of how the tenant is *now* "overheating" his unit as you say. Is he doing something actively to create heat in his unit? Are you sure cooking is not again a problem source of heat, with the thermostat back near the kitchen?

SteamingatMohawk said:

"If the boiler is cycled from a space thermostat in one zone, do not apply a radiator valve to that zone’s radiation."

LOL. They say that because it's going to produce exactly the effect you want, which is to suppress heat output nearest the thermostat, in order to "fool" the thermostat into running longer so that other units get more heat than this one. Most users of TRV's don't want to create this unbalanced heat output, hence the mfr's warning. You do, at least temporarily until you can get all the units back to roughly the same temperature. Then you can readjust the TRV in the problem unit to help maintain the balance.

Another way to simulate a temporary TRV is to throw a wool blanket (not synthetic which might melt) over the radiator nearest the thermostat for a day or two. That will suppress heat output from that radiator until the other units can catch up from their temperature deficit. Once they've caught up, ask the tenant to remove the blanket from the radiator.

Another longer-term thing you could try is to build and install a simple radiator cover over the radiator nearest the thermostat. That will partially inhibit the heat output of the radiator, again causing the boiler to run longer cycles, helping the other units get more heat.

But ultimately I would put the TRV on that radiator, because it's infinitely adjustable and will let you fine-tune the system. And worst case, if you find out it's not helping, you can just open it all the way.

SteamingatMohawk

If I didn't have an access issue a TRV would be good, but just shutting the radiator valve or plugging the vent does the same thing and doesn't cost anything or invite "experimentation" by the tenant.

I'm looking into a way to remotely control steam to the radiator in the room with the tstat. I found a1/8" Normally Open solenoid valve that I could wire up to power, run the wiring to the basement and use a wifi outlet switch I already have to energize (shut) the valve for the amount of time it takes to warm up the other apartments. If I do this and the unbalance occurs again, all I have to do is repeat the sequence, shut the valve, run the heat, then open the valve without bothering my tenant.


To try a quick summary the three problems:

Opening windows and running a fan, overheated other apartments. That practice has stopped.

Different temperature rise and fall profiles between the room with the thermostat and first floor living rooms. That's what I mentioned above to heat the first floor without heating the thermostat room. But I need access to do it.

Cooking enough to raise the temperature at the thermostat mounted on the wall near the stove (see pic), preventing the heat from coming on, resulting in the first floor rooms getting cold. The corrective action there is to find a better place for the thermostat. The Govee equipment I ordered was delayed from12/28 to 1/2 (if it shows up then), so I have to wait for it.

I hope this clears things up.

jesmed1

SteamingatMohawk said:

I'm looking into a way to remotely control steam to the radiator in the room with the tstat. I found a1/8" Normally Open solenoid valve that I could wire up to power, run the wiring to the basement and use a wifi outlet switch I already have to energize (shut) the valve for the amount of time it takes to warm up the other apartments. If I do this and the unbalance occurs again, all I have to do is repeat the sequence, shut the valve, run the heat, then open the valve without bothering my tenant.

Thanks for clarifying the multiple problems. You have a lot of variables complicating things. The solenoid sounds like a good plan. Let us know how that works out.

SteamingatMohawk

COMMERCIAL TO POTENTIAL LANDLORDS

To those who may consider becoming a landlord. In my 34 years times 4 apartments (136 tenant years) of ownership of this house I have had only three tenants who I wanted to leave. I even helped pay the cost of moving out for one. Another one I helped move in.

I originally bought the 60+ year old house that I thought I could do something of socially redeeming value by renting the units to people who didn't have a lot of money. One of my early tenants stayed for 13 years, I just "lost" a 9 year tenant to a remarriage and still have an 8 year tenant, So there are rewards for being a good landlord of great people.

Not including the newest tenant, 3 of the last four are referrals and more like family among us. That's what hurts about making a bad choice with the current tenant.

This is not patting myself on the back, it is intended to not scare away people reading my discussions from becoming landlords.

COMMERCIAL OVER, BACK TO THE SHOW!


"HAPPY NEW YEAR" TO ALL.

jesmed1

There are some bad landlords and some good ones. You are clearly one of the good ones. Your tenants are lucky.

Honestly, when I saw your post, I thought it was going to be a warning to potential landlords not to go down that road, because it can be a pain. I have a friend who rented his cottage to a woman who turned out to be a tenant from hell. He finally got her out and sold the place. I hope your current "problem" tenant settles down and you figure the heat situation out.

Meanwhile, happy new year!

SteamingatMohawk

Last year, ha ha, I plotted the tstat setting, tstat thermometer reading, the remote sensor readout and a few points for the first floor front living room when that tenant was home. I can read all the points except the first floor...new sensors on order so I can read more locations.

I had been keeping the thermostat set at 69, which is what worked for 4 years before the new tenant moved in, bumping up the setting in the morning to get the first floor up from 65 or so. Then hoping that over time the lower temperatures in the rooms would get closer. It didn't work so I decided to change the thermostat setting to 73 and see what happens. The definition of insanity...doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

In the chart you can see how the two temperatures track within about a degree and the first floor (red triangles) came closer by the end of the day. The thermostat setting is the blue line, but it is hidden behind the tstat thermometer reading.

I like what I see and am keeping the setting.

Next will be relocating the tstat, when I get the new sensors.

jesmed1

Nice. What software are you using to download the data and make the graph?

SteamingatMohawk

None to download. I have an app on my phone for the thermostat so I can control the system. I can see tstat setting, tstat temperature and outdoor temperature (it just shows up, I don't have an outdoor sensor).

The remote is an "invention" of mine. I wanted to have a way to monitor other locations in the house and found an indoor/outdoor (I/O) thermometer at Walmart. I bought two of them, one for the tstat room and another for the first floor room below it. The indoor reads directly on the readout, while the outdoor has a battery powered sensor that you can also read out on the readout. It turned out that the sensors for those particular devices are not paired and both readouts were reading the same sensor, so I removed the one on the first floor. I have the readout for the I/O in the basement with the camera I use to monitor the parking lot in the back in the winter, now relocated to read the I/O readout. I have an app for the camera, so I can see that too on my phone.

As far as #1LR, I only get data when the tenant is in the apartment.

I previously mentioned I ordered a Govee wifi thermometer with 6 sensors. It was supposed to be delivered on 12/28, but is delayed to 1/2. Pretty annoying..hopefully it really will arrive.

With those sensors I am going to do two things:

Position a few in the tstat room to figure out a better permanent place for the tstat.

Once I am done with that, I will deploy the sensors to each apartment and have 2 leftover for some other ideas that may pop into my head. I was thinking maybe I will put one near the stove to get an idea of how much change that makes.

I use Excel for the data. The only annoying thing is using actual times is a pain to format the time information axis. At least, you don't have to use the date if you only care about the time. If you want to use the date and time, you have to figure out what number corresponds to the actual date, then add to it for the actual time of day. Or figure out how to format both date and time in the cell, which I didn't bother doing. Then you have to use actual numbers for the minimum and maximum values displayed on the axis.

Showing outdoor temperature in the 30s and room temperatures in the 70 wastes a lot of chart space. It's easy to change the vertical scale range from 30 t0 90 to 60 to 90 and expand the info on what is going on inside the house. You don;t lose any data, so it's no big deal to expand and contract either scale.

jesmed1

Thanks for the details. We have a similar situation in our 4-unit condo building, where the 2 downstairs units control the boilers on each side of the building and the upstairs units have no control. So I got 2 of those indoor/outdoor thermometers with the wireless remotes and put the sensors in the upstairs units and the receivers in the downstairs units. I live in one of the downstairs units, and I keep the receiver/display next to my thermostat so I can see at a glance what the upstairs temperature is.

I've found that by partially closing a radiator valve in the same room as the thermostat, I can balance the heat in upstairs and downstairs units pretty closely. That's similar to what you're going to do with the solenoid on that one radiator, though your setup is more complicated. But it should work the same way.

SteamingatMohawk

Make sure the readouts are not reading the same sensor, like mine did.

jesmed1

SteamingatMohawk said:

Make sure the readouts are not reading the same sensor, like mine did.

Thanks, yes, I have them on different channels.

SteamingatMohawk

Here is today's chart so far. The tenant was using the oven and one burner on the stove.

Yesterday, I was able to relocate the thermostat and its thermometer about 8 feet further away from the stove and at a slightly lower elevation. Now the outdoor sensor reads higher than the tstat thermometer and the temperature at the tstat comes back down sooner. The tenant had window(s) open, which helped reduce the overheating, but at one point, shortly after 11:00 the temperature at the thermostat was below the setting. I texted him to advise him the heat would come on if he let it stay below the setpoint for too long.

My goal is find a location that will minimize "extreme" measures, like putting the tstat in another room with the door closed or some other such thing. I don't have a lot of faith that he would consistently put the tstat back where it belongs when he is not cooking.

I still don't have the extra sensors and decided to not wait for them to do the first guess on a "permanently" better location. After waiting 5 days past the original delivery date I reordered the items. This is the first time using Amazon that I have had a problem with not getting merchandise per schedule or at least only a day of delay.

Bottom line, it's a bit better.

jesmed1

Maybe better, but that's still a huge temperature excursion of like 5 degrees above the setpoint when cooking. Not sure what is going on there. What is he baking, plutonium?

Since it sounds like your thermostat sounds like a wireless one that can be moved around, why not put it in a different unit with a less problematic tenant?

SteamingatMohawk

The theory is the thermostat goes in the coldest room in the house. First you satisfy it on the coldest day of the year, then you tweak the other radiators. If I move it to another apartment, first I have to beg someone who doesn't want it to take it and then if I succeed with my pleading, I may have to readjust the rest of the house.

Admittedly, I am being stubborn, but almost 5 years of history with no problems makes this a challenge to overcome. It appears this guy is cooking more than the previous tenant did, maybe using the oven when the previous didn't do it as much. I am going to follow up on that to see if there really is a difference.

The previous tenant used to keep the thermostat at times on a coffee table in the middle of the room. I think that makes a big difference. This time there is no coffee table, so that's not an option.

I installed two angle brackets on the back of the tstat backplate as a stand so the thermostat is not sitting right on top of whatever it is on. That way I have proper air circulation through the tstat. I didn't have a bracket for the last tenant, didn't even think of it then. When the excursions started I thought maybe something had gone wrong inside the tstat and maybe not having proper air flow caused some kind of problem. After lots of troubleshooting, I concluded there is nothing wrong with anything in the system and it's just that I put the tstat back on the bracket on the wall near the kitchen. I did not anticipate the amount of heat this tenant is using. But I knew that moving the tstat to another place in the room had solved the situation in the past.

Now I have put it in a likely place and it seems to be doing what I expect. I received the thermometer kit and can proceed with my experiment to find the best place. I also have enough sensors to have one in each apartment. I have had to get data on the other apartments from the tenants when they are home. Once I install the sensors, I can plot those temperatures more frequently.

This too shall pass!

jesmed1

Yes, I too found out the hard way that secondary heat sources like cooking, small electric spaces heaters, etc can really throw a thermostat off. I too spent a lot of time trying to troubleshoot mysteriously unbalanced heat and suspecting all kinds of obscure reasons, until it dawned on me that apparently small heat sources in other rooms were, over time, creating enough heat to throw the thermostat off.

So I feel your pain, but it sounds like you have a good handle on things now.

SteamingatMohawk

No cooking! Tstat setting is behind the tstat thermometer line

jesmed1

Well, there you go. Maybe time to turn off his gas.

SteamingatMohawk

Yeah, right! Its just a small apartment.

SteamingatMohawk

So, I finally got the Govee 6 sensor with gateway setup and installed it. Now I stay up half the night making sure the tenants won't be cold in the AM.

Govee sensors as follows:

1 in each of 4 apartment living rooms near the +/-0.5F thermometers I bought last year. The Govee sensors have the same accuracy. (#1LR, #2LR, #3LR, #4LR)

1 on the wall in a potential alternate location for the thermostat.(#2Wall)

1 in the basement, because it was a leftover and I didn't have a specific plan for it. (BSMT) But I put it a few feet away from the boiler just for the heck of it. I wasn't smart enough at the time to think about how important it would be to know when the boiler is running based on the temperature changes in the basement. I was also surprised how cold the basement may get.

Original thermostat on two small angle brackets in another potential alternate location. (Tstat setting, Tstat Thermometer and Weather). The thermostat thermometer is less accurate (+/- about 2F) than the Govees

1 previously mentioned outdoor sensor that reads out on a device in the basement that is observed by a video camera. (Remote Sensor #2 Apt) This sensor (also about +/- 2F) is less accurate than the Govees. The basement Govee sensor is near it.

With all this stuff and 3 apps on my phone, I see

Honeywell Thermostat setpoint (Note, I can turn the heat on and off as well as change the setpoint).
Honeywell Thermostat thermometer reading
Honeywell Thermostat outdoor temperature (not sure which internet weather channel it uses, I don't use the available outdoor sensor)
4 Govee living room temperatures
1 Govee alternate location sensor in the thermostat living room
1 Govee in the basement
1 Outdoor temperature sensor reading in the thermostat living room. That's the remote sensor.

PLUS, the Govees also have relative humidity, so I can potentially see if the tenant is cooking or maybe taking a shower.This is getting creepy sounding.




This is today's busy chart. One thing to mention is the tstat setting and temperature are frequently identical and the setting (blue circle) is behind the temperature (orange square)

Up until 9:00 this morning I had been manually running the boiler because the tenant in the tstat apartment left the bathroom window open over the whole weekend. I went to the apartment at 9:30 and closed the window.

Now I am letting the system do its thing, so far without my intervention.

It's working like it should, living room temperatures are not identical because of the tenants' preferences.

I'm hoping it will work OK over night and I can get myself out of the "manual" business.

I hope this is helpful to HHers, The money spent on the sensors is worth 10 times the cost and I have learned some new things about how the system behaves, when not messed with by humans.

jesmed1

SteamingatMohawk said:

Up until 9:00 this morning I had been manually running the boiler because the tenant in the tstat apartment left the bathroom window open over the whole weekend.

Wow. Time to pay this guy to move somewhere else.

SteamingatMohawk

Not so easy. In addition to all the "mental and physical health baggage" he brought into the apartment, he was involved as a pedestrian in a hit and run accident. He is now in the hospital for one to two weeks.

It's extremely difficult to be business only when the person has so much going on in his life.

jesmed1

SteamingatMohawk said:

Not so easy. In addition to all the "mental and physical health baggage" he brought into the apartment, he was involved as a pedestrian in a hit and run accident. He is now in the hospital for one to two weeks.

It's extremely difficult to be business only when the person has so much going on in his life.

He is lucky to have a compassionate landlord. The good you do will come back to you, my friend.

I'm sorry to hear of his troubles, but now you have a great opportunity to do a controlled experiment in which the major variable has been temporarily removed.

SteamingatMohawk

I haven't touched the thermostat setpoint since yesterday morning. Things look good.

jesmed1

SteamingatMohawk said:

I haven't touched the thermostat setpoint since yesterday morning. Things look good.

Sounds like you figured it out. Here's another thread you might find interesting, also about finding steam heat problems with data loggers:


https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/195725/using-datalogging-thermometers-and-spreadsheet-to-diagnose-bad-rad-vent#latest

SteamingatMohawk

Holy cow and I thought I was going into never never land with all my sensors. I've taken a slightly dim view of those who obsess with data in this century, but am now a rehabilitated data "wanter", given the challenge with my tenant.

In the last few days, I haven't plotted dozens of points of data, I just look at my Govee app to see the basement temperature profile to check on when the heat is on compared to a couple of the rooms.

I will ultimately solve the cooking issue by installing a vent fan over the stove. I should have been more diligent when the previous tenant moved out and done that between tenants. As the youngsters say, "My bad!"

I'm toying with the idea of a two step process where I install the fan and don't duct it out of the house, so it just mixes whatever heat is thrown off from the stove. I'm not that will solve the problem, and may have to duct the fan to the outside...not the greatest project cutting a 6" hole in the side of the house in the winter and not knowing where the studs are behind the plaster wall. I have a fairly new metal roof and won't vent straight up and there is probably not enough access to vent through the attic to the soffitt.

This is all I plotted yesterday.

jesmed1

That looks a lot better than the 1/15 data plots. I assume because there's no activity in the temporarily vacant unit with the thermostat.

The kitchen vent fan probably would help, but only if you duct it outside. If you don't it's only going to blow the hot air around and make it reach the thermostat faster.

And of course, it will only work if the tenant actually turns it on when cooking.

SteamingatMohawk

But it will mix with other air in the room(s) and probably lower the temperature of the air near the ceiling doing the opposite of what you suggest. The proof will be if/when I install the fan.

It's a lot less work to not vent to the outdoors. Additionally, I think I may have already mentioned it, the space on the wall for the penetration is only about 12 inches wide by 8 inches high and if a stud is in the way, I can't just eliminate a section.

jesmed1

SteamingatMohawk said:

It's a lot less work to not vent to the outdoors. Additionally, I think I may have already mentioned it, the space on the wall for the penetration is only about 12 inches wide by 8 inches high and if a stud is in the way, I can't just eliminate a section.

That is tight, but a standard 6" round duct should work as long as the stud isn't right in the middle of the 12-inch space, and even if it is, you can neck down to a 4-inch duct.

SteamingatMohawk

While the air flow may not be affected that much if the end is just a 6x4 reducer and the vent flapper. The velocity of the air would be increased at the exit (ignoring compressible flow) because of the smaller cross sectional area by the ratio of the two cross sections. 6" = 28.3 sq in, compared to 4" = 12.6, about 2.25 times as fast. Could it increase the sound of the air flow? I'm not sure how much. Better to test it before installing?

Does anyone have any first hand experience?

How about a 3.25x10 transition to a vent flapper in a vertical orientation for a radical idea?

SteamingatMohawk

Hmm, how would the flapper work in that arrangement....NOT?

jesmed1

SteamingatMohawk said:

While the air flow may not be affected that much if the end is just a 6x4 reducer and the vent flapper. The velocity of the air would be increased at the exit (ignoring compressible flow) because of the smaller cross sectional area by the ratio of the two cross sections. 6" = 28.3 sq in, compared to 4" = 12.6, about 2.25 times as fast. Could it increase the sound of the air flow? I'm not sure how much. Better to test it before installing?

Does anyone have any first hand experience?

How about a 3.25x10 transition to a vent flapper in a vertical orientation for a radical idea?

All the kitchen vent hoods I've ever had made so much fan noise that any noise the airflow may have made in the duct was drowned out. So I doubt a reducer at the end of the run would make a noticeable difference. But it should be easy to make a mockup of the duct with a reducer and run the vent hood with it before installation to test it.

Fortunately you will not be close to Mach 1 at the duct exit.

bburd

I have to point out that since the 4 inch duct has less than half the cross-sectional area of the 6 inch duct, the airflow will be considerably less than the rating of the fan and may make it ineffective at capturing smoke and grease. Residential range hoods are rarely more than about 50% effective even if installed according to design.

SteamingatMohawk

I would run the 6 inch duct from the fan to the wall, then make the 6x4 reduction to a 4" wall vent. That way the restriction would be limited to the last foot or so of the ductwork, not the entire almost 10 foot length.

SteamingatMohawk

This escapade can now come to a close. The tenant, who is still in the hospital after his hit-run accident, is moving out. He currently cannot handle stairs and will be moving into an apartment owned by his brother. That will be a better place for the tenant. Today, I helped the brother move bedding and other possessions from the apartment to his brother's place.

I will be installing the vent fan once I have possession of the apartment and can figure out the exact layout, especially the vent duct to the outside. The main issue is discussed at length above.

Thanks for the supporting comments.