Viessmann with Riello Question

spurmagic8462

Hello,

I have a Viessmann Vitorond 200 oil boiler with a Vitotronic 100 control panel and a Riello F3 burner.

It is having an issue where it will light for a second, and then the flame goes out. It sometimes fires and stays lit on the first try, but most times it takes 2-3 tries to remain on. At worst, it takes 3-4. 

This issue seems to have started occuring when a previous tech changed the nozzle from a 0.50gph 60* W to a 0.50gph 60* SS. 

Would the nozzle change make this occur or is something else going on here? The system worked fine up until this point.

The last contractor didn't perform any tuning/testing after the service. Trying to find a new contractor to ensure the system is balanced but figured I'd start here. 

Thanks in advance! 

HVACNUT

spurmagic8462 said:

Hello,

I have a Viessmann Vitorond 200 oil boiler with a Vitotronic 100 control panel and a Riello F3 burner.

It is having an issue where it will light for a second, and then the flame goes out. 

Light for a second, or light for 5 seconds, then goes into safety?
Or attempts to light for 5 seconds, then goes into safety?

What's the actual model number of the boiler? The models I see using a .50 nozzle spec either W or SS. They're a similar spray pattern just different manufacturers. Delavan and Hago respectively. So, that's not it.
Repeatedly resetting the burner isn't wise, especially if it's a delayed ignition. Get a tech experienced with Riello, and has a combustion analyzer and smoke tester at the bare minimum. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

Do you have an inside or outside oil tank and if it is inside do the oil lines run overhead?

Sounds kind of like a suction leak, but it could be a number of things.

Did they change the oil filter or monkey with the oil line and get air in it.

spurmagic8462

HVACNUT said:

spurmagic8462 said:

Hello,

I have a Viessmann Vitorond 200 oil boiler with a Vitotronic 100 control panel and a Riello F3 burner.

It is having an issue where it will light for a second, and then the flame goes out. 

Light for a second, or light for 5 seconds, then goes into safety?
Or attempts to light for 5 seconds, then goes into safety?

What's the actual model number of the boiler? The models I see using a .50 nozzle spec either W or SS. They're a similar spray pattern just different manufacturers. Delavan and Hago respectively. So, that's not it.
Repeatedly resetting the burner isn't wise, especially if it's a delayed ignition. Get a tech experienced with Riello, and has a combustion analyzer and smoke tester at the bare minimum. 

Thanks for the reply! It's a VR2-22.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by safety. I don't intervene at any point, I just hear it upstairs. It doesn't seem to be related to temp or wind, etc. Sometimes it starts right up. Other times, you can hear the Riello blower, and then it'll try to ignite, but won't. So it tries the process again (on its own) and it'll work. Other times, it'll start up the blower, and then you hear the flame ignite for a second, but it'll go out. At that time, the Riello will repeat the process on its own and start. Finally, other times, it'll do this for 3-4 restarts until it lights (again, all on its own). I never reset the burner.

Does that answer you question? Thanks! Also, yes. Trying to find a knowledgeable tech. No luck so far.

spurmagic8462

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Do you have an inside or outside oil tank and if it is inside do the oil lines run overhead?

Sounds kind of like a suction leak, but it could be a number of things.

Did they change the oil filter or monkey with the oil line and get air in it.

Thanks for the reply! The oil tank is inside on the other side of the basement. The filter was replaced. I'm not sure about air in the oil line. Is this easy to check or verify? Does this behavior point to that? Thanks!

spurmagic8462

HVACNUT said:

spurmagic8462 said:

Hello,

I have a Viessmann Vitorond 200 oil boiler with a Vitotronic 100 control panel and a Riello F3 burner.

It is having an issue where it will light for a second, and then the flame goes out. 

Light for a second, or light for 5 seconds, then goes into safety?
Or attempts to light for 5 seconds, then goes into safety?

What's the actual model number of the boiler? The models I see using a .50 nozzle spec either W or SS. They're a similar spray pattern just different manufacturers. Delavan and Hago respectively. So, that's not it.
Repeatedly resetting the burner isn't wise, especially if it's a delayed ignition. Get a tech experienced with Riello, and has a combustion analyzer and smoke tester at the bare minimum. 

Hey! Thanks for the response. I thought I replied to this, but it didn't post for some reason. It's a VR2-22.

I'm not sure what you mean by safety. I never intervene with it. I just hear it from upstairs.

Sometimes, it'll light on the first attempt. Other times, it won't. It doesn't seem related to weather.

For instance, it'll try to start and nothing will ignite. So the Riello goes through it's igniting process again and tries all on its own to restart. If it's successful, it'll light, if not, it'll just try again. Again, this is all on its own. I'm not restarting anything.

Some times, it'll ignite for a split second. Then it sounds like the flame goes out, so all on its own, the Riello tries to start again. If it's successful, it'll run fine, if not, it'll go through the process again on its own until it stays lit.

Now that I think of it, it does seem to happen more when it hasn't ignited for 30-45 minutes plus.

Also, I'm trying to find a tech that will do that. No luck so far. I'm 0 for 5 so far! That's why I wanted to pick the minds here to at least have some knowledge of it. Thanks again.

STEVEusaPA

Probably too high over fire draft or too much combustion air. Plus what was mentioned up above. All it Needs a competent tech.
Where are you located?

HVACNUT

Can you take the cover off the Riello? Loosen 3 torx or Phillips heads and pull off.
On the right side of the burner, is there a black motor mechanism with a wiring harness attached? If so, that could be the issue. The damper keeps rotating and not locking open.

spurmagic8462

@STEVEusaPA I am in RI if anyone knows a good tech or business.

spurmagic8462

@HVACNUT - I don't see a black box. There is the control box on top. On the right is the air shutter air adjustment wheel. It connects to the boiler with a proprietary Viessmann black connector.

Is there an easy way to tell if the damper is not locking open when it tries to start? Would I be able to hear or see it? 

fueloilrich631

Just spit balling here, but it sounds like too much combustion air. Holding your hand over the air gate when it is in prepurge until it lights/tries to light. If it lights off, you're over aired. I'd call the company back to fix it.

HVACNUT

spurmagic8462 said:

@HVACNUT - I don't see a black box. There is the control box on top. On the right is the air shutter air adjustment wheel. It connects to the boiler with a proprietary Viessmann black connector.

Is there an easy way to tell if the damper is not locking open when it tries to start? Would I be able to hear or see it? 

Is it a motorized damper or fixed?

spurmagic8462

The air shutter? It appears fixed. I've added photos. 

HVACNUT

Get the tech back. It could be as @STEVEusaPA mentioned or the solenoid valve or plunger.
Out of curiosity, is there a cover for the front of the boiler or is the burner always open like that? 

spurmagic8462

Yes. It has a Viessmann cover. Also, thanks!

I have a call scheduled, but the company's soonest time to come back out is the middle of December.

Anything I could try/adjust in the meantime to mitigate the amount of times it tries to restart? Also, is the behavior of it anything to be concerned about?

HVACNUT

spurmagic8462 said:

Yes. It has a Viessmann cover. Also, thanks!

I have a call scheduled, but the company's soonest time to come back out is the middle of December.

Anything I could try/adjust in the meantime to mitigate the amount of times it tries to restart? Also, is the behavior of it anything to be concerned about?

I wouldn't be too concerned about it. Riello is pretty safe. You would be very concerned if I gave you advice and something went wrong. I wouldn't be able to sleep for at least a couple hours.
Are there no other oil dealers with good techs? If you find one, get an annual service agreement, and stick with it.

kjm231

I had the same issue with a Riello 40 C8512443 on a F5 Buderus G115/34 (chimney vented). These are the steps I took, but keep in mind you need some mechanical ability to dive into this. Nothing needs to be over tightened!

1. turn off the power to the burner.
2. close the firematic shutoff valve prior to the filter.
3. remove and changed the main filter.
4. pulled the cover off the oil pump and checked the screen and gasket (good idea to have a spare).
5. loosen the retaining screw on the control box and lift a little and gently slide it off.
6. check the flame sensor for obstruction (dirt, carbon).
7. check the resistance of the flame sensor with a flashlight.
8. remove the drawer assembly then remove and clean the turbulator, verify its position, put on a new nozzle, clean the electrodes with a Dremel tool and brass brush and finally verify the gap and distances of the electrodes.
9. clean and vacuum the burner chamber on the furnace.
10. reassemble everything
11. bleed the system and purged out all the air in the line.

After all this I attempted to restart my burner but it did not want to start. I covered the air adjustment plate with my hand a little and it fired up. at this point I varied the air intake with my hand and noted the flame brightness through the observation window. With the plate set where it was the burner ran but the flame looked bad. dull orange. I also noted that the Reillo burner cover also seems to restrict the air a little so I put it back on and still did not get a good start. I checked the factory airgate setting on my burner, 2.5. Mine was at 3.5

I reset my plate to 2.5 and made sure to tighten the middle screw as well because it was loose and a bit of extra air was bleeding in around the plate.

Reinstalled cover and it fired up as expected and has run perfectly.

This is just a guess but I'd say as the nozzle gets worn it puts out more fuel and thus needs more air to burn correctly so when I put the new nozzle on I had too much air in the system. Since I am the second owner of a 2014 system I have no idea when the nozzle was last changed out. (3 years at least). The tag shows servicing, but I don't know to what extent.

I'd love to be able to fine tune this burner put lack the fancy tools. right now its working great and the flame looks yellow and bright. It runs smoothly and is as quiet as a Riello can be. Just a notch below an F-35 in afterburner.

If I were you I'd skip to the end and note the setting on your airgate. If not at the factory startup setting try adjusting the airgate first. Keep in mind this is only valid for a new nozzle at the proper size.

In any case, I'd say you are getting too much air or too little fuel.

~Av8ter

HVACNUT

kjm231 said:

I had the same issue with a Riello 40 C8512443 on a F5 Buderus G115/34 (chimney vented). These are the steps I took, but keep in mind you need some mechanical ability to dive into this. Nothing needs to be over tightened! 1. turn off the power to the burner. 2. close the firematic shutoff valve prior to the filter. 3. remove and changed the main filter. 4. pulled the cover off the oil pump and checked the screen and gasket (good idea to have a spare). 5. loosen the retaining screw on the control box and lift a little and gently slide it off. 6. check the flame sensor for obstruction (dirt, carbon). 7. check the resistance of the flame sensor with a flashlight. 8. remove the drawer assembly then remove and clean the turbulator, verify its position, put on a new nozzle, clean the electrodes with a Dremel tool and brass brush and finally verify the gap and distances of the electrodes. 9. clean and vacuum the burner chamber on the furnace. 10. reassemble everything 11. bleed the system and purged out all the air in the line. After all this I attempted to restart my burner but it did not want to start. I covered the air adjustment plate with my hand a little and it fired up. at this point I varied the air intake with my hand and noted the flame brightness through the observation window. With the plate set where it was the burner ran but the flame looked bad. dull orange. I also noted that the Reillo burner cover also seems to restrict the air a little so I put it back on and still did not get a good start. I checked the factory airgate setting on my burner, 2.5. Mine was at 3.5 I reset my plate to 2.5 and made sure to tighten the middle screw as well because it was loose and a bit of extra air was bleeding in around the plate. Reinstalled cover and it fired up as expected and has run perfectly. This is just a guess but I'd say as the nozzle gets worn it puts out more fuel and thus needs more air to burn correctly so when I put the new nozzle on I had too much air in the system. Since I am the second owner of a 2014 system I have no idea when the nozzle was last changed out. (3 years at least). The tag shows servicing, but I don't know to what extent. I'd love to be able to fine tune this burner put lack the fancy tools. right now its working great and the flame looks yellow and bright. It runs smoothly and is as quiet as a Riello can be. Just a notch below an F-35 in afterburner. If I were you I'd skip to the end and note the setting on your airgate. If not at the factory startup setting try adjusting the airgate first. Keep in mind this is only valid for a new nozzle at the proper size. In any case, I'd say you are getting too much air or too little fuel. ~Av8ter

Thank you @kjm231 for the excellent tutorial on exactly what not to do. And on your very first post. Kudos! I can't decide if the Dremel on the electrodes or the "noted the flame brightness through the observation window" is my favorite. Can I have 2 favorites? Jolly good show!

But seriously, welcome. As you're now well aware, I'm a bit of of wise ****, but it's 2023, and we use the correct tools and instruments to diagnose, repair, and tune an oil or gas burner. Tik Tok this ain't. Maybe sit back and watch a little before you jump in all willy nilly.

~GURAQTINVU

kjm231

Willy Nilly my ****, it's an oil burner not a rocket. It's combustion in its simplest form and please explain how a tiny brass brush would affect a SS electrode. Most in your trade just wing it anyway and charge more than a doctor for a knowledge base that takes a week of training.

HVACNUT

kjm231 said:

Most in your trade just wing it anyway and charge more than a doctor for a knowledge base that takes a week of training.

You should join the industry. We're always looking for good techs. Like you said, the money is awesome. (Sometimes I have to pinch myself) You might need to start as a vac guy and work your way up, but you seem like a dedicated individual. If you need a list of tools and instruments required, you can PM me, and I'll gladly send it. 

rick in Alaska

This sure sounds like air in the fuel to me.
Does the pump have two fuel lines hooked to it, or a tigerloop? Sounds to me the burner starts to fire, and then hits a batch of air and flames out, then more fuel makes it to the pump and it fires again.
If it has a tigerloop on it, (two lines coming from the fuel pump to a device with a clear bowl on top), then look at the bowl when the burner starts and see if the fuel in the bowl drops to the bottom, and then comes back up with foam in it.
My guess is when the filter was replaced, it didn't get sealed quite all the way.
Rick

spurmagic8462

Hi Everyone. Year hiatus, but I’m back. This issue remains.

I had a tech back out in December of 23. They said the boiler were doing great and gave the following info. They also replaced the nozzle. I already changed the oil filter.

Efficiency: 87%
Draft +.04 OF -.03 Breach
CO2: 11%
Net Stack: 250F

Looking into the starting issue, the fuel pump was measured at 200psi. We turned it down to the factory spec of 175psi, but the flame would go out on its own, so it was raised back to 200psi and not explored more.

I reiterated the starting issue and they basically said they can’t find any issue. After that, it seemed to get better, but the issue came back around November of 2024.

Any other ideas? I’m trying to find another opinion, but in the meantime, wanted to check back here. The pump still takes about 1-3 tries to start. It seems to be worse when the boiler has run and warmed up. Cold starts are normally first try.

The pump screen was changed out about 3 years ago. Also, the pump solenoid and electrode tips were replaced last year by the tech.

Again, it’s never not fired. Just takes some tries and I don’t want to wait until it finally gives up after all these multiple attempts.

HVACNUT

Hint: When the fuel ratio decreases, the oxygen ratio increases. You're also missing a lot of numbers on the combustion report. Smoke reading, O2, CO, Excess air. +.04 over fire? Stack temperature is very low for Steady State.

Grallert

I'd first focus on the excess air. The CO2 # could be a tad higher I think.

BDR529

The .50 nozzel is to small even the .60 has been tepermental at times. Not enough fuel in that, to lean. Our wonderful blended fuels.

Start with a 60 60W then maybe .65.60W adjust pump pressure accordingly MUST use analizer to get proper combustion

Not for the handy home owner!

GW

Riellos don't like lots of draft. They will 'false start'

That's a good clue——it happens more when the 'boiler is warm'.

I didn't read every post, do you have good oil filtration? Do you have a Micron filter? You may need to chuck another nozzle at it. Screens will remain good for many many years or forever with a micron filter

As mentioned, a Tiger loop may help

Going to a larger nozzle—not sure about that, then you'll have to back off the pressure a bit. Lots of Riello guys prefer higher pressure.

SuperTech

For what it's worth, I worked on a Viessman Vitola Biferral earlier this year. Fantastic boiler. But the previous tech put in a hollow nozzle, a Delevan .60 60A. That boiler would rumble and run like crap no matter what adjustments were made to change the combustion and draft. I installed a Delevan .60 60W and the difference was like night and day. It ran perfectly smooth and no rumbles whatsoever. I was easily able to tune it to a true zero smoke.

So I think the suggestion to run a W nozzle is a good idea.

GW

Yes the Riellos seem to enjoy the W even though it's not 'spec'.

spurmagic8462

Thanks everyone. The above comments are interesting because when I looked back at records of the previous tech that serviced this unit for awhile, they documented that they used a W nozzle. The new tech changed it to the factory spec. The boiler never exhibited this issue with the W and has only been there since the nozzle change a couple years ago.

I'm going to go back to a W and report back. Thanks everyone!

GW

W to the rescue, can't fight city hall all the time

yellowdog

That's the problem with new techs. They always want to be a hero in the shop by telling everyone they found something out of spec and put it back the way it was supposed to be to factory spec. Needless to say, they are usually never the ones who have to go back and put it back the way it was to get it to run right again.