Rusted Amtrol EX-30

swvawethead

I asked the administrators to delete my over-winded post that was inadvertanlty posted at the Gas Heating forum.
I apologize for wasting time for folks to who took the time to read.

In my attempt to get past this heating season I am replacing the pinhole rusted Amtrol EX30 with another. It failed after installation of Budrus boiler in winter of 2016/2017.

After finding the system with zero pressure yesterday before firing up for this season, at first a failed air vent (Amtrol) was suspected. The red plastic screw on cap was found on the floor with obvious wet spot that had dried. Closer inspection revealed the pinhole leak on the sidewall of the expansion tank after finding the dribble traced to the pinhole rust.
(pictures posted.) I suppose the cap came off but not sure how because the cap has vent holes in it.

Question is:
Can the EX30 pinhole leak and gradual loss of pressure cause the vent cap to end up on the floor? Possibly during last heating season?
Installer unscrewed it one turn after starting the boiler for the first time in Jan 2017.

Or is it possible the vent also failed together with the pinhole rusted expansion tank?
The tank pressure read 12 psi by the way.
And the dribble showed after opening the fill valve and bringing the system pressure to 12 psi.

----------

This is for "leonz"....

Thanks to Dan Holohand's books and after having zero issues with our good ole Burnham gas boiler with B&G steel tank with B&G airtrol valve, I would like to convert the Buderus gas system that was installed in 2016/2017 to a steel expansion tank and get rid of the bladder tank/air separator/vent.
I will post the piping around the Buderus that replaced an American Standard Arcoliner oil burner that had ceiling mounted steel tank and should have retained it. But that's another story for another thread...

swvawethead

Proud owner of good old fashioned Burnham gas boiler with (most likely a B&G) steel expansion tank with B&G airtrol tank valve. Sealed system. After bypassing some under slab runs - suspected leaks - haven't touched anything in nearly 25 years except the thermocouple every several years. Yes, it has a standing pilot light and love the simplicity of it all.
Bought and read Dan Holohan's "Pumping Away" and "How Come?" and learned so much but just enough to correct and stabilize the system - such as propery piping to the ceiling expansion steel. It was gurging and pipe banging mess when we bought the house in 1996.

Well, next door we replaced an American Standard Arcoliner oil burner with a Buderus gas boiler.
Installer used Amtrol Extrol air scoop with Amtrol air vent (has "15 46" on top). Under this is a EX-30 expansion tank.

About to drop down to the 20s starting tonight.
Just checked the system pressure and it is reading zero....
First I thought it's a water logged tank with a busted membrane after learning they are good for maybe 5-7 years. (Kicking myself for not asking the installer to retain the old steel expansion tank, but that's another story for later.)
System was installed late 2016 and was commissioned January 2017.
There is sign of water leak on the floor under the expansion tank.
The red cap covering the air vent was on the floor.
Definitely water came out of the vent and dribbled down to the floor.

I am sorry to take so long to get to this questions.

I shut off power to the boiler after discovering zero pressure in the system.

1. The EX-30 does not seem to make the telltale sound of it being full of water.
I will check the tank pressure as soon as I post this.
Can a tank with a busted membrane full of water cause the system pressure to drop to
zero? I can go to Home Dump and grab one for $41.
2. Can a defective vent valve cause water leak (ours definitely has done this) and lose
system pressure down to zero?
3. Our of curiosity I opened the fill valve (I closed two of the three zones) until pressure
rose to 12 lbs. Last I checked it is maintaing pressure and about to go back and look.
Should I go ahead and just replace both?
I read nothing but good things at the forum about the Honeywell 122 (?) vent but don't
have the time to wait for delivery and there is no local source. (We are not in New
England....)

Have the kerosene heater on standby if this spills over into tomorrow.

Thank you for taking the time.
Did several searches before posting this.

Alan

swvawethead

It appears the installer used the "Amtrol EX-30 Expansion Tank Air Scoop Kit".
No idea how reliable the air scoop is. I did read in the Wall they can get contaminated and 'get stuck'.
Not sure if it can be opened and cleaned.
If I can walk in Home Dump and just get a new one will replace it and tinker with the old one.
The tank, $67, not $41, I get the impression is a disposable item every 5-7 years and maybe should just replace regardless.

swvawethead

Dear Wall folks...

Went back to check the pressure - hair bit drop to around 11 lbs.
Checked the bladder tank and it read 12 lbs.
However....noticed driblets of water.
Not coming from the vent above.
Got my headlamp on and looked all around.
A darned rust pinhole leak on the side of EX30.
Not at the weld seam.
1/2" above the indented ring above the weld.

It appears it was slow leaking all summer after last heating season and I suppose enough to lose system pressure.

About to go grab one at Home Dump.

Anything I should be alarmed about for this happening?
For now I am ruling out any under slab piping leaks, etc. as it has been running fine in past seasons.

Posting picture.

swvawethead

To go on endlessly about this - turns out to be a thing with these Amtrol EX30s....
Pinhole rust on the tank body.
Made in U.S.A.?
Don't know what to make of this.
And none at Home Depot off the shelf. Have to order it.

Even if I have to order one and burn kerosene for couple of nights, I am open to suggestions for other brands, etc. After Thursday night the freezing spell will be over for a week or longer.

Will try another local supplier tomorrow just to get past this.

Thank you for reading this endless rambling.

Jamie Hall

When you do get a new one, be sure and set the air charge correctly -- BEFORE you connect the tank to the system. Adjust the air pressure to your desired system pressure.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@swvawethead

Just replace the bladder tank with a new on. Compression tanks are just more problems. The air connection on the tank is not a bleeder the tank needs 12-15 psi in it at all times.

Who knows why the cap came off that is little importance. It's basically a dust cap to keep dirt out of the air valve. The fact that your tank has 12 psi means the bladder is probably ok but the tank is rusting through.

I would not wait to long you could have a flood

hot_rod

Maybe get one of the Amtrol pro tanks. They are lined inside so there is no exposed
metal

swvawethead

Thank you for the replies!
Anxiously waiting for replacement EX30 to get past this - should be here Friday from Supply House.
No walk in source for many hydronics stuff in my neck of the woods in SWVa.
It is a closed system, three zones are shut off at the circulator, shouldn't lose too much removing the rusted tank. While at it will open up the air vent (Amtrol, says 15 46) and inspect.
Come springtime will add a shutoff for the expansion tank and swap in an Amtrol Pro tank - thank you!
I get the impression from the Wall postings EX30 may be undersized for our system that I split off into three circulator zones when the Buderus (I am sorry the model not handy at the moment) was installed.
One is for the entire main floor. Split off the downstairs living area and there is a third zone for a grandma suite.
It seems it's ok to oversize the expansion tank and properly pressurize it to match the system pressure.

I will look at the Pro tank sizes but if one next size up from EX30 jumps out at you please holler.

As mentioned at end of my post, definitely interested in a B&G steel tank with airtrol.
After studying Pumping Away, etc. and correcting the piping to the ceiling mounted tank for our Burnham standing pilot with two zones, haven't had to mess with anything since....1997-1998? Such a simple thing of beauty. Did disconnect/bypass couple of under slab runs that may have caused much head scratching for the previous owner until we bought the house in '96.
Always keep a spare thermocouple at the boiler and they last 3-5 years. Sometimes only little over a year.

Thank you so much!!

swvawethead

I did not check the pressure in the tank with it removed, so it may have read the system pressure.
Do not have an isolation valve for the tank - will be added with the new one.
But it needs to be replaced anyway.

Keep reading about the honeywell 122 vent...maybe use that when swapping in the Amtrol Pro model?

WMno57

swvawethead said:

As mentioned at end of my post, definitely interested in a B&G steel tank with airtrol.

I had to drive to Wisconsin to get mine. Single tanks don't ship well (denting), and supply houses don't want to order a pallet of 4 because they are slow movers. So they are hard to find locally.

Quality Tanks Inc.
606 Delco Dr, Clinton, WI 53525
(608) 676-2281

http://www.qualitytanksinc.com/Expansion-Tanks.html
Their website is down. I hope they are still in business, great people (unlike Johnstone Supply, and some of the other clowns I tried to do business with)
The thread from my tank adventure:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/181774/replacing-ceiling-mounted-thrush-compression-tank

hot_rod

Your system will perform much better with a microbubble air separator, compared to a compression tank air elimination. Air removal vs air management.

If you do change, at least use a microbubble sep with the air port routed to the tank.

Any way that you are getting P2 into the system somehow? Any other components corroding, pump bodies, steel nipples, etc?

I've used Extrols for many years, occasional failures, they should last 20 plus years, properly sized, charged, and with deareated water.

Non barrier tube systems will eat up expansion tanks. Any brand.

WMno57

swvawethead

Good morning.

Hot Rod - thank you.
WMno57 - you have no idea how much Dan Holohan's books and The Wall saved my donkey.
Anywhere south from maybe even Maryland things can get very sketchy. Southwest Virginia can get cold and there are good folks but very hard to come by. Basically been learning and fending for myself.

I am wanting to get past this and come spring will make changes as much as I can.
Properly converting to steel tank will involve some searching.

This Buderus install in 2016 was extremely stressful and I did not survive it 100%. Took phone calls to Buderus, referral to one of their field persons - up north in PA - to help straighten out some questions and put a stop to questionable details.

Person supervising couple of kids several years out of high school, etc. and he did not inspire much confidence. (Thought I did my due diligence including researching farther out from our area.)
To clarify, they were all nice folks but probably didn't care too much for me being a pest.

Had to have them install more isolation valves, such as below the circulators. For less work, they were going to use non barrier pex and had to make them run copper when splitting up a zone into two.
Got a blank stare when I demanded they not use pex they brought. (The original quote was overshot by several Gs.) And they were not set up for and familiar with working with 02 barrier stuff.
Then I had to clean all the sloppy flux mess. I think I posted some questions about that at The Wall.
No boiler drain at bottom of return....
Instead of running black iron for gas to the boiler, they ran flex line (can't remember what they are called) and looks like crap.
After this season will call our trusted plumber and swap in black iron.

The flue and damper you will notice is a whole different story in itself - stupid kids.
But I checked with the Buderus person and he said that should be enough upward slope and rise from the boiler. I want to fix that later but chimney is full of vermiculite around the stainless flue.
Flue damper they mounted at 12 o clock. Made them rotate it to 9 o clock.
Made them add a fourth zone, position boiler for indirect tank if installed later.

Had to demand they use a brass union above the boiler. It turned into having to call the town chief inspector to get an ok. Huh? That would have been an eventual headache down the road.
Mounted the sediment trap upside down and supervisor agreed to rotate it down....
It was one thing after another and frankly I just wanted them out of there and deal with the aftermath.
And...when it was commissioned Jan 2017 it ran flawlessly for several seasons and I was glad to get it over with.

One good thing that came out of it was digging up and hauling away the 1000 gallon tank in the front yard with minimal drama. They were not going to install the Buderus until that was taken care of. I chose not to open and fill it with aggregate. They broke apart and hauled away the Arcoliner.
I kept all the sked K copper piping, B&G brass and red series 100s, etc.

I am attaching pictures - kids ran regular pex from feed valve and I asked for shutoff at that spot.
And it is kept closed.
Please tell me if that may have been enough 02 intrusion to corrode the tank.
I can easily change that detail and invested in Wirsbo expansion pex stuff including the power tool.

I think I have enough isolation valves to start removing the tank before it arrives Friday?
Since the tank is bad anyway, maybe press on the schrader valve to reduce pressure?

The boiler pressure is still hovering around 12 lbs, so I have no immediate concerns about under slab leaks at the moment.

swvawethead

WMno57 - the painted black iron piping - amazing difference. Can you tell me if it's a purpose made stuff for that?
Sure would be immediately obvious if anything leaks, etc.

Yes, I see the scrubber and the pipe that heads to the steel tank.
Thank you for showing that.

Also, I think i see red pex line that must be the feed? Looks like mine.
Is that barrier pex?
Please look at my pic to see if that is enough to rust the tank.
Thanks!!

WMno57

swvawethead said:

Since the tank is bad anyway, maybe press on the schrader valve to reduce pressure?
The boiler pressure is still hovering around 12 lbs,

Are you refering to the Schrader valve on the Amtrol Tank, or the bleeder with the red cap on top of the Amtrol Purger?
Water is not compressible. So once you remove the tank there should be no compressed air in the system causing water to gush out. Unless you have a 12psi pocket of air in some radiator.
I would instead close all the valves, connect a hose to the boiler drain valve on the system supply on the top of the boiler (strange location), and relieve pressure through that. Then remove and replace the tank.
I'm not familiar with the Amtrol air purger, but that red cap may have to be opened to let air out.
Two story house? I might fill to a slightly higher pressure than the final desired pressure, to allow for air coming out through the purger over a couple of days. Maybe start at 15 psi, and end up with 12 psi? You can always adjust final pressure by adding water through the PRV and main supply valve, or removing water through that boiler shower head. Maybe the installers thought your boiler needed regular bathing .
I think your system looks pretty good from the pictures. Since the tank rusted out after seven years I might change out the 6 inches of red non barrier pex between the feed shutoff and the Amtrol Purger. Hard to imagine that being a problem, but easy enough change.
Other than that, I think I would just R&R the Amtrol tank and forget about trying to source a compression tank.

swvawethead

Thank you WMno57.
Thank you everybody for taking the time and putting me at ease over uncertain details.

The Amtrol tank has a schrader valve on the bottom for the bladder which is where I checked the pressure which read 12 psi but I did not do that correctly in hindsight. Out of curiosity will check again after removing the tank.

Thought I could reduce pressure in the Amtrol by pressing on that and avoid messing with the boiler drain.
I think that section of the boiler is isolated enough to go that route.

Come spring will for sure take hot_rod's suggestion on the Amtrol Pro lined tank and go up a size or two.
Been spoiled by our steel tank setup at our main house so it is very tempting to dive in there and have fun with converting. But as you said, no rush for the time being.

The 'shower head' looking hose bib thingy on the return was my attempt at adding more stuff for ease of filling the system during the install. I filled the system, not the contractor. Unfortunately things kind of got away in my attempt to move on and did not add a hose bib at another spot for filling the system - it was fun reading some posts on that detail. For now have to use the fill valve which is ok.

Have several kerosene heaters burning downstairs and upstairs is in the 50s.
Of all days - down to mid 20s last night, to 20 tonite, mid 20s Thu nite.
Then above freezing starting Friday after the tank is delivered. Go figure.
Got plenty of practice maintaining and safely using them - between the arcoliner and the budrus when I stopped buying fuel oil after prices got jacked up several years ago. And wanted to get rid of that giant tank that was in place since the 1950s!

Thank you.

GGross

Can't check the pressure while it is connected to the system, tank needs to be disconnected. When you replace the tank check the pressure on it before installing it, and make sure it matches up with your systems cold fill pressure

WMno57

swvawethead said:

WMno57 - the painted black iron piping - amazing difference. Can you tell me if it's a purpose made stuff for that?

Painting was done by the grandson of the previous owner. He is a drywall and painting contractor. Looking at the finish and the paint cans in the basement I would guess prep with TSP, then probably primed with indoor primer. Topcoat is flat white which matches cans of Sherwin Williams indoor flat latex that came with house. I run a dehumidifier in the basement and it has held up well for the 5 years of my ownership.

swvawethead said:

Also, I think i see red pex line that must be the feed? Looks like mine.
Is that barrier pex?

I have a red B&G pump on the return to my boiler. My feed before the pressure reducing valve is painted and I always assumed galvanized. Between the PRV and the boiler appears to be black steel gas pipe (which probably should be galvanized instead).

JUGHNE

If the tank is water logged.....it will be surprisingly heavy!

WMno57

GGross said:

Can't check the pressure while it is connected to the system, tank needs to be disconnected. When you replace the tank check the pressure on it before installing it, and make sure it matches up with your systems cold fill pressure

Right. The way I wrote it was confusing. I was referring to the system pressure shown on the boiler gauge. The Schrader valve on the tank is really only there to set initial tank pressure before installation. No reason to add/remove air or check pressure there once installed.
Milton makes a nice 2-20 psi tire gauge for garden tractors. I think still made in the USA. It should be more accurate in that range than a cheapo car tire gauge.
https://miltonindustries.com/collections/gauges/products/miltonr-low-pressure-tire-gauge-single-retail-pack-s-917w

hot_rod

A backflow device on the fill would be a good idea

you could squirt a can of hydronic fluid into the system also, it helps prevent corrosion

swvawethead

Hello.
Thank you for all the feedbacks and suggestions.

Based on all the warnings I've read about water logged tanks, and I've seen some crazy pictures of side mounted ones with no support (!), I don't think this one is water logged.
It sounds like bladder is intact. However, can't be careful enough, so thanks for the reminder.
(Planning on moseying next door later to spin off the expansion tank ahead of the Friday delivery.)

This hydronic fluild...I need to look that up.
Sounds like a 'why not'.

There is a backflow that was installed farther upstream when the Buderus was installed, closer to the shutoff that branches off the town water line in the house. They were required to install that in addition to the backflow at the point where the line enters the house.
(I got lucky around the same time when the town ran a new line to the house with a new meter - no charge.)

Thank you so much.

swvawethead

WMno57
Thank you for mentioning the Milton gauge.
Have a few of their products - couplers for the air compressor, I think the tire fill gun (?), compressor blow gun, etc. They came highly recommended but did not know about the low pressure stick gauge.
Thanks again.

swvawethead

Found the backflow above the boiler on the supply line before the fill valve.

swvawethead

Thank you to those who reminded me about setting the tank pressure to match the desired system pressure (at cold) before installing. Will do my best to accomplish this. It is three zones with a large single loop upstairs. May attempt to set it at 15 lbs. It is currently at shy under 12 with expansion tank area isolated after the rusted pinhole leak was discovered.
Not quite sure if the sequence will work out because the tank is not isolated with a shutoff.
Will get a shutoff added before the tank arrives tomorrow.

Thank you!!!

swvawethead

The Amtrol EX30 replacement was ordered in a hurry and is factory set at 12 lbs.
Can it be bumped up to 15?
As suggested by hot-rod, will swap in a Amtrol Pro lined tank at next size up after this heating season.

Being super lazy - will the Pro have a different size fitting from the EX30?
Not sure the current size for the EX30 for adding an isolation ball valve for the expansion tank.
Of course easy enough to take the rusted tank to the supplier and browse the bins.

Asked the installer to use only U.S. made ball valves but not sure if they did. White handled 'FNW'. No idea.
If you can recommend some brands. Yellow handled Apollo?

GGross

Yes you can up the pressure in the tank to 15, my understanding was that Amtrol changed the factory charge from 12 PSI to 15 PSI some years ago, but either way you should ALWAYS check the factory charge prior to install and adjust if necessary, don't rely on the factory charge being accurate it just isn't worth the headache on the off chance it isn't charged correctly

swvawethead

Thank you - wasn't sure about bumping it up on the EX30 until getting the Amtrol pro tank in the spring.

Needing to use wrenches to counter against spinning off the tank.
Will head to shop for a ball valve to mount above the tank.
This should be very helpful in matching system and tank pressure before opening the isolation valve.
Thank you.

As suggested earlier, opened the boiler side of shutoff to relieve pressure to the tank and shut off after.
Instead of bleeding off the tank Schrader.
This way I can confirm if bladder still intact after removing.

One more night in 20s.
Been able to maintain 50-55 in the meantime with boiler shut down.

GGross

"One more night in 20s."

And I thought I was in the cold north! It's been 31-32 here for 2 days straight, finally some relief today at 40 something haha, hopefully you get that boiler up and running soon!

swvawethead

Yeah, tell me about it. After tonight back to warm days for over a week - starting after new tank is swapped in. Last winter had several single digit nights - SWVa.

Thanks to everybody's helpful guidence, just a matter of getting the new tank after matching the pressures. (Mucho helpful heads up/tip!)

However...so as not to bother my better half boss for help, need to get a large capacity strap wrench so I can spin off that puppy solo. Tried several ways but...
I can oppose it but no third hand to spin the tank.

swvawethead

Hmmm...Don't see one that will wrap around the EX30...
Keep looking...or get creative.

hot_rod

There are a few different brands of these expansion tank service valves. Very handy for draining and removing tanks. Without getting wet or dropping the tank onto something below

There should be a hex on the tank nipple to put a wrench on.

dko

ot

swvawethead

Yikes, hot_rod, just back from Fersugons with 1/2" Apollo ball valve.
Ones you showed no doubt serve multiple purposes besides ease of replacing the tank.
Maybe for making up the small amount of water loss? No idea at the moment.
I need to learn more about them.
Actually, that may help add a system fill port straight from hose connected to a home hose bib for blasting in water one zone at a time? That was another missed detail during installation.

I have a question about making up for the small amount of water lost from under the circulators to the shutoff above the boiler in the picture.
After installing the ball valve for the expansion tank and keeping it close until the new tank arrives, I want to set the new pressure at 15 psi.
The system pressure is reading zero after I relieved it, but did not drain much before it dropped to zero.

Not sure if I can just turn on the fill line through the fill valve and run up the pressure to 15 psi.
There must be an air pocket to eliminate...
Do I need to hook up a hose at the return to push air out?
You can see the hose bib on return line upper left of the picture.



Getting to the finish line...

swvawethead

I am an idiot....need male/female fitting.
Back to Ferguson's.

Karl Reynolds

You have two types of FNW ball valves on your system. The soldered valves are the 421 series made in Italy, an excellent valve. The threaded valves are the 420 series made in Taiwan, a good valve. Very, very
few issues with either the 421 or the 410.

WMno57

swvawethead said:

need to get a large capacity strap wrench so I can spin off that puppy solo.

Serpentine belt and large box wrench.

swvawethead

Thank you for the reassurances on the FNWs. Did see some horror stories about sketchy stuff out there..
Dang, great tip on serpentine belt. Have a few used ones and also timing belts.
Better half helped hold the counter hold wrench and sucker was cranked on tight.
Now I see the reasons for the turn handles vs. lever arm. Had to think before installing the valve for handle clearance
And learned there ain't such thing as male female valves. Got a brass nipple .

swvawethead

Last remaining piece of the puzzle is adding back maybe 1/2-1 gallon at the most of water that came out from boiler and suction side of circulators set it at 15 lbs. and be ready for the tank which will be set to 15 lbs before opening the valve.

SuperTech

The ball valve is a nice touch but it would be a lot better to have another tee with a boiler drain between the valve and expansion tank.  No point in isolating the tank when it's full of water pressure.