Thanks for everyone's help, it's finally installed

PeteA

4 days straight of busting my butt by myself but I think it's complete and came out pretty decent. Thanks for everyone's help over the last year with my occassional requests for info and guidance. It really is appreciated!!
Let me know what you think. I pressure tested to 40lbs for 24 hours figuring that was enough since the regular pressure was 12lbs and the relief valve is 35. That was the only thing i wasn't sure about at the end but figure 3x regular pressure should be enough.

EdTheHeaterMan

Nice and clean. GREAT JOB!!! Now lets look for mistakes everyone. LOL

EdTheHeaterMan

Not really a mistake. It is just that you are not completely finished yet.
img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/13/pfolm7cu2u4f.png" alt="" />

EdTheHeaterMan

The R&D folks at Velocity Boiler Works are always working on NEW STUFF!


Now the gas fired units have a spin cycle

PeteA

@EdTheHeaterMan thanks for the feedback really appreciate your input on the questions I've had.
I'll fix add the discharge pipe today when I get home.

I'm always looking for stuff to R&D so when Velocity Boilers offered me a chance to demo the combi dryer/ boiler, I jumped right on it.

hot_rod

Honey I shrunk the boiler! cast iron boilers are getting smaller by the year. That not much bigger than a mod con

PeteA

@hot_rod
hopefully "size doesn't matter" and I just get plenty of years of good use out of it.

OldawgBryant

@PeteA Looks pretty damn good great use of space (as I get ready to start mine)
A few questions:
1) What brand of Dope/Tape did you use on the joints?
2) You went with all 1.25" on the near piping (incl manifold)?
3) What brand of fittings?
4) How many threads did you leave showing after tightening?
5) Any leaks in joints when you were done?
6) I'm surprised you didn't replace the giant gas supply pipe
7) did you install a bypass?
8) You might get called-out for hanging one pipe from another, though.
9) It looks like you have a whole house water filter also? What brand and how long have you had it?
Thanks

EdTheHeaterMan

PeteA said:

@hot_rod
hopefully "size doesn't matter" and I just get plenty of years of good use out of it.

I know Yale Steingard, CEO of Crown Boiler. You should see His Wife. WOW! I wonder if she agrees with you

PeteA

@OldawgBryant
1) What brand of Dope/Tape did you use on the joints? All my teflon tape was Blue Monster 3/4 or 1/2 depending on the threads available on the fittings I also coated them with the megaloc pipe dope 15806 or 15808 whichever can was closest for me to grab.
2) You went with all 1.25" on the near piping (incl manifold)? For the manifolds I built I had already invested in the 1.25 pipe fittings and the 1/2 nipples (best part about a plumbing site is saying nipples and no one gets upset) and 1/2 ball valves to pick up the pex al pex compression fittings. BUT the rest of the near boiler piping except for a nipple out of the boiler was reduced to 1" pipe since after a lot of back-and-forth research and questions here on the wall that I asked folks said the 1" would be enough to flow what I needed for my setup. I didn't want to go through the hassle of returning all of the nipples, tees and elbos and bushings so I worked the rest with what I had.
3) What brand of fittings? 99.5% of the fittings are all Ward fittings (i did have to get 3 pieces from HD shhh) and piping is all Anvil except for 3 piece (I had to get from HD) I really didn't have a finalized plan in my head until the day before I started so I changed a couple of things on the napkin sketch 2 or 3 times.
4) How many threads did you leave showing after tightening? I took a quick look and the most thread I see on any of the fittings looks like 2 maybe 2 1/2. I sunk every fitting pretty tight singe I knew getting to anything that may leak would not have been easy.
5) Any leaks in joints when you were done? I actually only had 1 drip at a compression fitting and a quick snug up with the adjustables took care of it right away. Knock wood (pipe in this case) no other leaks anywhere else.
6) I'm surprised you didn't replace the giant gas supply pipe. It wasn't worth it at that point to go back that far towards the meter especially since the pipe had a really convenient reducer right there where you see it above where I put the valve. Plus its mounted pretty tight to the studs so it wasn't even a headroom issue. As far as the way I staggered the manifols the gas pipe didn't even cause me any issues when I did the slight off set with the pex-al-pex.
7) did you install a bypass? I did not. I didn't think I would need one in my setup. (and maybe an expert can chime in if my logic was wrong) Most of the house has radiators and 1 bedroom in the middle has a short 4 foot section of base board so I figured with the baseboard the flow would not be nearly as restrictive as the radiators and with the baseboard flowing faster that it would return warmer water quicker that even my smallest radiatior. I connected this baseboard to the middle of my manifold. So I did a test and I fired up the system it only took 26 minutes to go from 70 degree water to have the outgoing water to be at 130 and my returning side water to already be at 120. The middle baseboard was good and hot but what was really good was that all of the radiators had already started to return hot water also so it seemed to be working as a bypass the way I had hoped. If my logic is wrong please let me know, but I will definitely also update when cold weather sets in.
8) You might get called-out for hanging one pipe from another, though. Actually the lower pipe is not actually "hanging" from the top pipe. the manifold has several supports mounted to the joists and I only put that piece up there because if in the future I ever need to replace the pump and open up the bolts on the flanges I don't want to run around looking for something to support the expansion tank, fill valves and the weight of the vertical pipes so I did loosely put pipe hanging strap in that spot to support it and prevent it from "unscrewing itself since it would drop down to the left and loosen itself if the weight was ever removed from the manifold. Do you think I should use Uni-strut or something else from the floor instead? My basement floor sux so I would prefer to not drill into it until I redo all of my weeping tile drains.
9) It looks like you have a whole house water filter also? What brand and how long have you had it? I have had this one in the house for several years. I like it for my purposes. I have city water so it really only does sediment and chlorine so each filter lasts quite a while. I am not where you're located so depending on your water conditions a different type may be better. If you do want to consider a whole house water filter then here is one with GREAT features. I installed a GE GXWH70M this thing has a lot of features that you'd pay much more dough for individually.

EdTheHeaterMan

This guy writes more than I do. WOW

and has a sense of humor too:

best part about a plumbing site is saying nipples and no one gets upset

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37uzn0Vs-dA

Good thing your Monicker is PeteA and not Peter!

PeteA

@EdTheHeaterMan
Only my mom and my HR rep call me Peter
that's when I know I'm in trouble.

mattmia2

I suspect you might need the thermostatic valve for return water protection. The way that system is going to run, if you have the right t-stat on it set up correctly is it will call on temp and more or less shut off on heat anticipator so it will keep the system at a somewhat constant temp that matches the heat loss of the structure. If it keeps calling for heat until it starts to actually sense heat from the system all that mass will overshoot under most conditions. If that temp results in a return water temp below 130 or so during milder weather then you will need return water temp protection.(I am assuming this was a gravity system, not having the gravity mains helps but there is a lot of mass in the radiators themselves.)

I don't think that the baseboard loop will help you, it will inject some hotter return water but there will still be more return water from the high mass parts of the system so the mixed temp will likely be close to the temp of the high mass system.

hot_rod

The installation looks nice.
As for protection of low return temperature. The rule of thumb is within 10 minutes you should see a 130F return temperature. Keep an eye on the burner tray and flue piping for signs of condensation if it runs cold too long. Does the Crown manual talk to return protection?

It's nice to have a 15- 20 minute run cycle once fired also, prevent short cycling

PeteA

@mattmia2 and @hot_rod awesome feedback and info as always but just so I can wrap my head around some if these ideas your throwing at me.
mattmia I would want some type of thermostat that cuts off the flame but continues to run the circulator when the outgoing hot piping is at what temp? This is to make sure my radiators aren't screaming hot even after the regular thermostats heat call is satified?? I am a more visual / tech manual person can you just give me some type of a picture or a thermostat model I can refer to so I can see how to incorporate this. I assume I would use an aquastat or some other device to keep the pump running but break the Thermostat connection to cut the gas. Or can just a thermostatic mixing valve be used but I would assume I would still have the overshooting concerns. I am a little confused but I'm sure just an example would help clear it up for me.

Bob I assume that in order to shave off the additional 10 minutes of run time and achieve the 130 degree water temp to the core of the boiler quicker that the thermostatic mixing valve is the best way to get there. When I built the manifolds I did add an extra 1/2" ball valve and left it as the open spare port on the last out first in on my supply and return. Would that be a good spot for that device? If it needs to be on a pipe the same size as the manifolds then I'm going to be a little reluctant to have to start taking things apart to add one at this time. Could I add a pex al pex jumper between the 2 spare valves to achieve a similar result?

looking forward to the info I'd love to be able to say that this install is set up the best way possible with all the help and feedback you folks give..

PeteA

This is from the manual:
I guess I will have to figure out a way to get something between the supply and return sides. I assume that since I kept the radiators I fall into the "large volume" section 3 description which does describe a bypass with throttling valves.
I do have bushings in the ends of my manifolds where I inserted small bleeder valves to ensure I could get out any trapped air at the ends of the pipes so I guess I can try and figure out something there to install this bypass. ugh just when I thought I could come out of the closet... I mean basement.

mattmia2

That is one way. A thermostatic mixing valve is better because it only bypasses when necessary although it might be more difficult to add to your piping.

PeteA

@mattmia2 you're not kidding as far as the piping challenges
But the way I'm looking at it depending on the configuration of the mixing valve I assume inserting it above the pump flange and then into the vertical pipe above the union may be the only choice I have if a thermostaic valve is my only and or best option.

mattmia2

It would be something like on page 56 of this.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/caleffi_bro12.pdf

It would be inline with the return and have a branch from the outlet of the circulator that would feed it that could come off the manifold. @hot_rod can give you better specifics than I can.

You have the option of running it and see how it works once the system is hot and cycling, it may stay hot enough to avoid condensing or it may need protection.

hot_rod

Every boiler behaves according to the environment it is put into.

Basically the distribution is in charge of the operating condition of the boiler. Often that is misunderstood and folks thing the controls on the boiler dictate how it operates. While in reality the controls keep the boiler out of undesirable operation conditions, high temperature mainly.

So your boiler or past boiler may have operated fine under your system conditions, probably many non condensing boilers go their entire life without return protection. You would really need to visit each one to see the condition its condition is in (K. Rogers)

As you can see todays cast boilers aren't what they used to be. Size wise, castingwise, fluid contentwise. I suspect they will not take abuse like the old iron?

Your current observations tell the tale. If the boiler runs and extended time to get above condensing operation now, on design days that condition may extend.

So, to make a long story long.

Boiler manufacturers show numerous ways to prevent or lessen excessive cold running temperature. Sometimes a bypass tube and balance valve is adequate.
Sometimes a bypass pump is needed to get the temperature up.
Problem is both of those methods are a guesstimate. They may work under one specific operating condition only. As zones open and close the whole dynamics of the system changes. Could be they are bypassing when it is not even needed also.

Better than nothing seems to be the boiler manufacturers intention with those suggestions.

What a bypass needs is a brain, just like a tinman. A thermostatic bypass valve brings along a temperature responsive function. It also "slips the clutch" for you. It opens proportionally to the return temperature. As the return warms it allows more supply to the system. If a cold zone opens, dumps a slug of 60° water into the return, the valve responds by closing down supply, bypassing more back to the boiler until it catches the load again.

Valves like this are mandatory on Euro solid fuel boilers, wood, pellet, chip burners, as creasote becomes a big issue when boilers and flues condense.

So when you see a spec sheet on thermostatic return protection valves, it often shows a solid fueled boiler in the piping schematic. It's a substantial market still in Europe. With gas and oil supply issues, solid fuel gasification boiler sales go up again. May as well burn the furniture in your wood boiler if you get cold enough

Teeing up to be a smokey winter in Europe as Germany started ramp up the dirty coal power plants again, this week.

PeteA

@hot_rod
An awesome friend of mine would say "to make a long story even longer" lol
Thanks as always and I really apologize for making you explain it to me again. I recently looked at my previous topics I posted and saw I already had these questions for you a year ago. Obviously I didn't let it sink in enough or I let it sink in too far and passed it out my butt so I forgot
I should have purchased this darn thing before I assembled this darn thing this past weekend and I would have already had it installed and been fat dumb and happy. But either way here I am darn. Oh did I say darn it.
I am looking at the catalog I was sent with the Caleffi products and I also know supply house sells a ton of your companies stuff but I see different names for the units, mixing, balancing, tempering whiich style device is for this exact application. Also is my assumption right that the only way to really make the 3 some valve work on my set up would be between the 2 vertical pipes with a T above the flange area on the supply side and the valve in the vertical piece above the union on the return side? I see some of the valves have the threaded union type connectors which would allow me to get rid of the black pipe union on the return side.

PeteA

seek and yee shall find
Maybe if I would stop scrolling through the catalog so fast I would have seen the title that says "boiler protection valves" duh!! Now I just need to save up a few bucks to buy one of these and the regulating valve for the top of my hot water heater and all my pipe dreams will be complete. for now..

OldawgBryant

@PeteA Ironic, as I read your previous posts that talked about such bypass protection. I have ordered one at 1-1/4" NPT and I am waiting for it, so I can continue my boiler layout. I also got the DirtMAG as I do not want to have crud interfere with the protection valve. (HotRod has spoken the gospel about it) I will be installing isolating valves for future service of it as well. Don't forget to have the pump pulling from the 3 way valve, as opposed to pushing, else it will not work well. I think you are going to be fine with the radiators, as I will. What year is the house?

OldawgBryant

@PeteA And thanks for the breakdown on your piping, it will help me in mine!

mattmia2

the dirtmag is most important for protecting the circulator which has a permanent magnet in the wet rotor motor which will attract iron particles from the system in to the rotor and bearings.

PeteA

@OldawgBryant yup silly oversite on my part that will cost me a little bit of time with the rework of the piping and installing the diverter but hey lesson learned.
I did the dirtmag right away since I was well aware of the particles that it would help with capturing in my very heavy iron based system. The Caleffi dual magnet setup should be a great help extending the life of the system. I kick myself that I lost site of the diverter but thats a DIY guys lesson learned.
Good luck with your project.

@hot_rod can you explain what @OldawgBryant is saying about the location of the diverter? I was under the impression that it will work in a diverter mode or mixing mode so I was picturing the valve would go on my return side and then T into the supply side. Can you give me an idea of the best way for me to install this in my setup?

I think i may be misinterpreting how this valve works.

PeteA

@hot_rod
here is what I'm interpreting on my set up how to install the boiler protection valve. Am I planning this out for the correct spot?
I also plan on getting the 130 degree model since the crown boiler manual says to try and get over 120 degrees as soon as possible.
sorry I wrote 208 valve on the drawing instead of 280. That's what happens after 35 years working with electricity, everything is 120/208
Thanks in advance
Pete

hot_rod

You have it drawn correctly

PeteA

Thanks Bob @hot_rod

MikeAmann

hot_rod said:

You have it drawn correctly

But @OldawgBryant mentioned above that the circulator should NOT be pumping into the valve. Which is correct? Should the hot supply be tapped before the circulator?

PeteA

@MikeAmann Thats exactly why I went to Bob for the answer. He is the expert on the Caleffi products and how they work.
I read the same thing that you did and it didn't quite seem right since it is an automatic valve so I couldn't see why it wouldn't work after the pump. So that's why I drew the picture to clarify where I was thinking it should be installed. In my case it's after the pump which means only about 5-6 gallons of water will be circulating and heating up before the valve begins to open and allow the return water to start to pass through and into the boiler.

EricPeterson

@PeteA - mine is piped in a similar manner as yours, pumping towards the valve. It works. And yes just a few gallons of water is circulating initially. But as I said in my post, that only lasts for a couple of minutes before the valve starts to open.

It wouldn't work if the pump was after the tee because there would be no path through the valve for the return when the valve is closed to return water.

Eric Peterson